What did I do wrong ? (thinking about tying again with goldf

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

Hello,

I am a tropical fish keeper of many years' standing, and have a pretty
good understanding of fish care.

Some time ago I decided to get some goldfish. I used a 48"x12"x15" tank,
running a Fluval 2 filter, with regular water changes. Our water is soft
and neutral.

Well, despite introducing the fish slowly and monitoring ammonia,
nitrite and nitrate (which all went as expected), the fish only lived
for a couple of months before dying. No obvious diseases, just went all
floppy and died.

We had about eight 2-3" fish, fairly ordinary comets. These were
introduced slowly, not all at once, so I don't think it was the cycling
that did it. Anyway, I monitored levels.

I'm now thinking about trying again, but I can't help wondering where I
went wrong. I know people who get goldfish at a fair, thrown them in a
small bowl, over feed them, rarely change the water (and do 100% changes
when they do) and the fish live for ages. I took great care to give them
a good home and they died. The fish were good quality, from a reputable
shop where I buy my tropicals.

Any tips ? I know this is all very vague, but I can see what I did
wrong. I assume that keeping cold water fish is similar to keeping
tropical fish.

I'm thinking of a 24" cube for a tank. Got a nice spot for one of those.
How many fish would be comfortable in this ?

TIA

--
Alan Silver

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>goldfish

dr-solo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 1445

GF dont like soft water, what is your hardness?
there has to be symptoms before they go "floppy' and die.
here is fish physical and list of behaviors etc
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/disease/disease.htm
how much water do you change, what was the level of nitrates, what kind of aeration
did you have, temp of tanks, type of food and how often did you feed.
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials
Ingrid

Alan Silver wrote:
with regular water changes. Our water is soft >and neutral.
>
>Well, despite introducing the fish slowly and monitoring ammonia,
>nitrite and nitrate (which all went as expected), the fish only lived
>for a couple of months before dying. No obvious diseases, just went all
>floppy and died.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Chloe · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

"Alan Silver"
wrote in
message $Ew1Z@nospamthankyou.spam...
> Hello,
>
> I am a tropical fish keeper of many years' standing, and have a pretty
> good understanding of fish care.
>
> Some time ago I decided to get some goldfish. I used a 48"x12"x15" tank,
> running a Fluval 2 filter, with regular water changes. Our water is soft
> and neutral.
>
> Well, despite introducing the fish slowly and monitoring ammonia,
> nitrite and nitrate (which all went as expected), the fish only lived
> for a couple of months before dying. No obvious diseases, just went all
> floppy and died.
>
> We had about eight 2-3" fish, fairly ordinary comets. These were
> introduced slowly, not all at once, so I don't think it was the cycling
> that did it. Anyway, I monitored levels.
>
> I'm now thinking about trying again, but I can't help wondering where I
> went wrong. I know people who get goldfish at a fair, thrown them in a
> small bowl, over feed them, rarely change the water (and do 100% changes
> when they do) and the fish live for ages. I took great care to give them
> a good home and they died. The fish were good quality, from a reputable
> shop where I buy my tropicals.
>
> Any tips ? I know this is all very vague, but I can see what I did
> wrong. I assume that keeping cold water fish is similar to keeping
> tropical fish.
>
> I'm thinking of a 24" cube for a tank. Got a nice spot for one of those.
> How many fish would be comfortable in this ?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Alan Silver

The rule of thumb for new keepers of goldfish is one small-medium size fish
per 10 gallons, with about 25% water change per week. This may seem
ridiculous to you as someone with experience with trops, but the digestive
system of goldfish is such that they produce massive quantities of waste.

I too have heard and read the anecdotal stories of the carnival fish that
live for years in filthy water, but since I've been reading this newsgroup
I've read far more stories of fish dying from poor water quality.

I realize you said your tests went as expected, but it sounds to me as if
you were overstocked. Also new fish are likely to carry disease and should
be quarantined for a while before introducing them into an existing tank.

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Chloe
writes
>The rule of thumb for new keepers of goldfish is one small-medium size
>fish per 10 gallons, with about 25% water change per week. This may
>seem ridiculous to you as someone with experience with trops, but the
>digestive system of goldfish is such that they produce massive
>quantities of waste.

OK, so my tank was probably overstocked. It was about 35 US gallons,
which according to your rule should have allowed about three and a half
fish (!!). I had eight small to medium, which would be too many.

Only thing is, if that was the case, I would have expected to see a high
nitrate level in the tank. After the initial peaks it was at an
acceptable level (1-15mg/l).

Also, I was pretty careful with water changes. I would have thought that
this would have helped. I know it doesn't excuse overstocking, but I was
quite good about keeping the tank clean.

>I too have heard and read the anecdotal stories of the carnival fish
>that live for years in filthy water, but since I've been reading this
>newsgroup I've read far more stories of fish dying from poor water
>quality.

Me too. I was just venting frustration at the fact that they all died
when I actually tried to do it right !!

>I realize you said your tests went as expected, but it sounds to me as
>if you were overstocked. Also new fish are likely to carry disease and
>should be quarantined for a while before introducing them into an
>existing tank.

Also a good point. Having said that, I didn't see any signs of disease.
I don't know if goldfish diseases are much different from tropical ones,
but going by what I know from the trops, I didn't see any disease.

Anyway, thanx for the info. Worth contemplating for the future.

--
Alan Silver

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article ,
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com writes
>GF dont like soft water, what is your hardness?

Don't know in numbers but I know it's pretty soft. That could be an
explanation. This area (NW England) was one of the major wool centres in
the last century as the very soft water made for good quality woll when
it was washed. Not much comfort for the goldfish though !!

>there has to be symptoms before they go "floppy' and die. here is fish
>physical and list of behaviors etc
>http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/disease/disease.htm

Thanx, I'll have a look.

> how much water do you change,

I was doing about 20% every two weeks, or more if the nitrates went up.

If I go for another goldfish tank, I would plumb it in like my tropical
tank, so I would be doing 10% twice a week.

> what was the level of nitrates,

After cycling, they were no more than 10-15 mg/l

> what kind of aeration did you have,

Initially I had a couple of air stones. Took them out after the first
few died as I wasn't sure if I should have them.

> temp of tanks,

Room temperature. This is vague I know, but I never measured it !!

> type of food and how often did you feed.
>http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials

Flake food mostly. Occasional frozen food and vegetable matter. Fed
flake once per day, other bits whenever.

--
Alan Silver

dr-solo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 1445

OK.. you have some less than ideal conditions for goldies. however, you should be
aware that those cheap feeder GF are often loaded with cooties when you get them.
see buying a new goldfish and quarantine procedures here
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care.htm
Ingrid

Alan Silver wrote:

>In article ,
>dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com writes
>>GF dont like soft water, what is your hardness?
>
>Don't know in numbers but I know it's pretty soft. That could be an
>explanation. This area (NW England) was one of the major wool centres in
>the last century as the very soft water made for good quality woll when
>it was washed. Not much comfort for the goldfish though !!
>
>>there has to be symptoms before they go "floppy' and die. here is fish
>>physical and list of behaviors etc
>>http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/disease/disease.htm
>
>Thanx, I'll have a look.
>
>> how much water do you change,
>
>I was doing about 20% every two weeks, or more if the nitrates went up.
>
>If I go for another goldfish tank, I would plumb it in like my tropical
>tank, so I would be doing 10% twice a week.
>
>> what was the level of nitrates,
>
>After cycling, they were no more than 10-15 mg/l
>
>> what kind of aeration did you have,
>
>Initially I had a couple of air stones. Took them out after the first
>few died as I wasn't sure if I should have them.
>
>> temp of tanks,
>
>Room temperature. This is vague I know, but I never measured it !!
>
>> type of food and how often did you feed.
>>http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials
>
>Flake food mostly. Occasional frozen food and vegetable matter. Fed
>flake once per day, other bits whenever.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article ,
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com writes
>OK.. you have some less than ideal conditions for goldies.

Which ones in particular ? If it's something I can fix easily, then I
would like to know.

Thanx for the info.

--
Alan Silver

Chloe · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

"Alan Silver"
wrote in
message $Ew2N@nospamthankyou.spam...
> In article , Chloe
> writes
> >I realize you said your tests went as expected, but it sounds to me as
> >if you were overstocked. Also new fish are likely to carry disease and
> >should be quarantined for a while before introducing them into an
> >existing tank.
>
> Also a good point. Having said that, I didn't see any signs of disease.
> I don't know if goldfish diseases are much different from tropical ones,
> but going by what I know from the trops, I didn't see any disease.
>
> Anyway, thanx for the info. Worth contemplating for the future.
>
> --
> Alan Silver

You're welcome. Diagnosis by Usenet isn't very dependable of course, but a
couple years of reading has convinced me that insufficient clean water is
the No. 1 problem by far with goldfish. I way prefer having three healthy,
long-lived ones in a 30 gallon tank (mine were discount store fish) than
twice as many sick or dying ones.

Chloe · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

"Alan Silver"
wrote in
message $EwEx@nospamthankyou.spam...
> In article ,
> dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com writes
> >OK.. you have some less than ideal conditions for goldies.
>
> Which ones in particular ? If it's something I can fix easily, then I
> would like to know.
>
> Thanx for the info.
>
> --
> Alan Silver

In addition to what sounded like insufficient water quantity and
insufficient water changes, flake food is less than ideal, too--it's not
very nutritious and leads to a lot of waste, which leads to even more fouled
water. Feed them a good quality floating or sinking pellet (Hikari is
readily available), supplemented by some other stuff like tubifex worms,
dried shrimp, and spirulina flakes.

dr-solo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 1445

everyone was telling you the problems. compare what you got with the essentials list

http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials
Ingrid

Alan Silver wrote:

>In article ,
>dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com writes
>>OK.. you have some less than ideal conditions for goldies.
>
>Which ones in particular ? If it's something I can fix easily, then I
>would like to know.
>
>Thanx for the info.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Chloe
writes
>You're welcome. Diagnosis by Usenet isn't very dependable of course,
>but a couple years of reading has convinced me that insufficient clean
>water is the No. 1 problem by far with goldfish. I way prefer having
>three healthy, long-lived ones in a 30 gallon tank (mine were discount
>store fish) than twice as many sick or dying ones.

Agreed 100% - I thought I was doing the right thing ;-(

Anyway, if I do this again, I'll certainly be better informed. Water
changes shouldn't be a problem (10% twice a week sound OK ?) and I can
easily feed them other things as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Thanx for the reply

--
Alan Silver

Geezer From The Freezer · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 496

Why make things hard, do a 20% change once a week.

Alan Silver wrote:
> Agreed 100% - I thought I was doing the right thing ;-(
>
> Anyway, if I do this again, I'll certainly be better informed. Water
> changes shouldn't be a problem (10% twice a week sound OK ?) and I can
> easily feed them other things as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Geezer From The Freezer
writes
>Why make things hard, do a 20% change once a week.

Because when I have the pipes plumbed in, it's no harder to do a water
change than it is to make a cup of tea (I can actually do both at the
same time). Water changes are done sitting on the floor in front of the
tank. It's a matter of ...

1) open tap one and wait a minute or so
2) open tap two and wait about five minutes
3) close tap two, open tap one again and wait about five minutes
4) close tap one and go for tea

All this is done without opening the top of the tank and without getting
my hands wet or trailing pipes or buckets of water around. It's no
effort.

I prefer to give my fish smaller changes in temperature and water
chemistry as it is far better for them. 20% is actually quite a lot to
change in one go.

--
Alan Silver

Chloe · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

"Alan Silver"
wrote in
message $xA$Ew2y@nospamthankyou.spam...
> In article , Geezer From The Freezer
> writes
> >Why make things hard, do a 20% change once a week.
>
> Because when I have the pipes plumbed in, it's no harder to do a water
> change than it is to make a cup of tea (I can actually do both at the
> same time). Water changes are done sitting on the floor in front of the
> tank. It's a matter of ...
>
> 1) open tap one and wait a minute or so
> 2) open tap two and wait about five minutes
> 3) close tap two, open tap one again and wait about five minutes
> 4) close tap one and go for tea
>
> All this is done without opening the top of the tank and without getting
> my hands wet or trailing pipes or buckets of water around. It's no
> effort.
>
> I prefer to give my fish smaller changes in temperature and water
> chemistry as it is far better for them. 20% is actually quite a lot to
> change in one go.

Sounds wonderful, although I'm wondering how you dechlorinate the water with
that method, or do you not need to?

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Chloe
writes
>Sounds wonderful, although I'm wondering how you dechlorinate the water
>with that method, or do you not need to?

I put the water conditioner directly in the tank. I must admit that this
bit *does* require opening the tank, but given that small water changes
are not going to cause chlorine problems over a short time period, I
often wait until the next feed to add the conditioner (or I do the water
change when I feed).

Ta ra

--
Alan Silver