UPS and heater(s)

Bill Stock · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 55

I had another power outage last weekend (4+ hours), so I finally broke down
and bought a couple of refurbed UPSs. They should last a while as they are
36 amp hours each. The Goldfish tank only uses 24 watts (2 Fluval 304s), as
I won't connect the heater or lights. But I was wondering about the Tropical
tank, since batteries last exponentially longer under reduced load. Would I
not be better to have one 100 watt heater running twice as long, rather than
the normal two 100 watt heaters. In fact I was thinking about replacing the
two 100 watt heaters with a decent digital heater and leaving one of the 100
watt heaters in the tank as a backup. I would set the backup below the
threshold of the main heater (say 75°F) and connect it to the UPS. This way
the heater would not come on until the power had been off for a while.

Also do I need to connect the UGF filter to the UPS or can the bacteria
survive in the gravel for a while?

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>tech

Rocco Moretti · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 19

Ian Stirling wrote:

> 100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
> temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.

Well, it'll depend on the efficiency of the heaters. A more efficient
heater will use most of the electricity to heat the tank, whereas a less
efficient heater will use less of the electricity for heating the tank,
and the rest will be ... wasted ... as ... heat.

Hmmm.

Never mind then. Smile

Bill Stock · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 55

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message $0$6314$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Bill Stock wrote:
>> I had another power outage last weekend (4+ hours), so I finally broke
>> down
>> and bought a couple of refurbed UPSs. They should last a while as they
>> are
>> 36 amp hours each. The Goldfish tank only uses 24 watts (2 Fluval 304s),
>> as
>> I won't connect the heater or lights. But I was wondering about the
>> Tropical
>> tank, since batteries last exponentially longer under reduced load. Would
>> I
>> not be better to have one 100 watt heater running twice as long, rather
>> than
>> the normal two 100 watt heaters. In fact I was thinking about replacing
>> the
>> two 100 watt heaters with a decent digital heater and leaving one of the
>> 100
>> watt heaters in the tank as a backup. I would set the backup below the
>> threshold of the main heater (say 75?F) and connect it to the UPS. This
>> way
>> the heater would not come on until the power had been off for a while.
>
> 100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
> temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
> 100 gallons of water maintains its temperature for a long while, and most
> fish are fairly tolerant if it's once.

Not arguing that 100 @ twice the time period is the same as 200 @ one time
unit. But if you look at the run time chart for most UPS you will see that
the last MUCH longer at smaller loads, i.e. not a linear increase. For
example my UPS lasts 8 minutes at 900 watts and 301 minutes at 50 watts. But
900/50*8 =144 NOT 301. I actually ran a test on the weekend @ 25 watts and I
got 8.5 hours out of the existing batteries, which are only holding about an
80% charge.

> I would not have used UPSs, they arn't really the right tool, for small
> loads,
> as the battery is sized to discharge through the inverter in some half an
> hour, but the inverter will typically use 5%-10% of its nameplate power as
> parasitic power.
> So, with a 600W UPS, you may be looking at 80W draw from the battery,
> rather than 30W, which you might get with a small inverter.

I looked at the Inverter/Battery setup, but many of the inverters put out
POOR waveforms, which are detrimental to many powerheads. The UPS I bought
has a fairly good reputation for a 'cleaner' sinewave. Although I may still
go this route for powering up the fridge/freezer for longer blackouts.

> I'd have gone with a deep-discharge rated battery, and a small inverter,
> combined with a small battery charger to keep it charged.
>
> Not to say it won't work of course.
> A tip, you may well find that you get better run-time if you daisychain
> the
> UPSs, rather than having both powering seperate stuff.

Ian Stirling · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 15

Bill Stock wrote:
> I had another power outage last weekend (4+ hours), so I finally broke down
> and bought a couple of refurbed UPSs. They should last a while as they are
> 36 amp hours each. The Goldfish tank only uses 24 watts (2 Fluval 304s), as
> I won't connect the heater or lights. But I was wondering about the Tropical
> tank, since batteries last exponentially longer under reduced load. Would I
> not be better to have one 100 watt heater running twice as long, rather than
> the normal two 100 watt heaters. In fact I was thinking about replacing the
> two 100 watt heaters with a decent digital heater and leaving one of the 100
> watt heaters in the tank as a backup. I would set the backup below the
> threshold of the main heater (say 75?F) and connect it to the UPS. This way
> the heater would not come on until the power had been off for a while.

100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
100 gallons of water maintains its temperature for a long while, and most
fish are fairly tolerant if it's once.
I would not have used UPSs, they arn't really the right tool, for small loads,
as the battery is sized to discharge through the inverter in some half an
hour, but the inverter will typically use 5%-10% of its nameplate power as
parasitic power.
So, with a 600W UPS, you may be looking at 80W draw from the battery,
rather than 30W, which you might get with a small inverter.

I'd have gone with a deep-discharge rated battery, and a small inverter,
combined with a small battery charger to keep it charged.

Not to say it won't work of course.
A tip, you may well find that you get better run-time if you daisychain the
UPSs, rather than having both powering seperate stuff.

Charles · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 91

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:31:58 -0500, Rocco Moretti
wrote:

>Ian Stirling wrote:
>
>> 100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
>> temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
>
>Well, it'll depend on the efficiency of the heaters. A more efficient
>heater will use most of the electricity to heat the tank, whereas a less
>efficient heater will use less of the electricity for heating the tank,
>and the rest will be ... wasted ... as ... heat.
>
>Hmmm.
>
>Never mind then. Smile

Well said.

--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

mark.howard10 · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 11

Personally, I'd concentrate on keeping the UGF fed with oxygen as a priority
over the heating (unless you live in a very cold place). Oxygen starvation
in the gravel will quickly kill the bacteria in the filter. The last time I
lost power for a few hours, the temperature only dropped a few degrees but I
still lost a couple of fish a few days later.

Mark

Bill Stock · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 55

wrote in message $1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
> Personally, I'd concentrate on keeping the UGF fed with oxygen as a
> priority
> over the heating (unless you live in a very cold place). Oxygen starvation
> in the gravel will quickly kill the bacteria in the filter. The last time
> I
> lost power for a few hours, the temperature only dropped a few degrees but
> I
> still lost a couple of fish a few days later.
>
> Mark

Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank should
hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50°F.

Pszemol · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 643

"Bill Stock" wrote in message @rogers.com...
> I looked at the Inverter/Battery setup, but many of the inverters put out
> POOR waveforms, which are detrimental to many powerheads. The UPS
> I bought has a fairly good reputation for a 'cleaner' sinewave. Although I
> may still go this route for powering up the fridge/freezer for longer
> blackouts.

I would not be concerned with sine/square wave...
I would check if this UPS can be used for the heater at all.
Most of UPSes I know do not let you turn on the device when on battery mode.
OR, they turn themselves off when detect a no load situation on battery
mode.
And this might be a problem because your heater will work in on/off mode...

I would avoid puting heaters/lights on backup power.
They are not needed in emergency situations.
Water circulation/gasses exchange is much more important.

Pszemol · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 643

"Bill Stock" wrote in message @rogers.com...
> Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
> have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
> winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank
> should hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50°F.

My God!
Where do you keep your fish tank if you have the room temperature at 50F ?

Bill Stock · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 55

"Pszemol" wrote in message @poczta.onet.pl...
> "Bill Stock" wrote in message
> @rogers.com...
>> Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
>> have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
>> winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank
>> should hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50°F.
>
> My God!
> Where do you keep your fish tank if you have the room temperature at 50F ?

LOL, we keep the house at 60 at night, so the basement usually gets down to
55 or so, but can get lower on cool nights. It's cheaper to heat the fish.

Ian Stirling · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 15

Bill Stock wrote:
>
> wrote in message
> $1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net...
>> Personally, I'd concentrate on keeping the UGF fed with oxygen as a
>> priority
>> over the heating (unless you live in a very cold place). Oxygen starvation

> Thanks Mark the Powerheads on the UGF don't draw much current, so they I
> have them on there now. The temp does get down to the low 50s during the
> winter months, hence the concern about the heaters. I guess the tank should
> hold it's temp for a while though, even at 50?F.

I'd wonder if I'd insulated the tanks as well as possible, first.
Stick 1" of polystyrene on the back and sides, and bottom if not visible,
to form a backdrop, and keep it warmer.
Depending on the design, insulating the top may also be possible.

Rene Brehmer · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Documented research indicate that on Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:22:53 -0400, Bill
Stock wrote:

> LOL, we keep the house at 60 at night, so the basement usually gets down to
> 55 or so, but can get lower on cool nights. It's cheaper to heat the fish.

Obviously this depends on the amount of heat you get from the sun, and how
high you have the day temp, but in many cases, lowering the temperature at
night does not save you much if any energy at all, since it means that
you'll just have to heat up the house that much more in the morning to get
it back to normal room temperature. The extra energy needed to reheat the
house usually far exceeds what you save by lowering the temp at night.

Not to mention that by letting the house get under 15 C/59 F you risk
humidity and moist problems that can result in bacterias that you do not
want living in your house.

Without a dehumidifier, lowering the temp that much is a health issue
waiting to happen.
--
Rene Brehmer
aka Metalbunny

We have nothing to fear from free speech and free information on the
Internet, but pop-up advertising!

http://metalbunny.net/
My little mess of things...

Nikki Casali · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 48

Charles Spitzer wrote:

> "Rene Brehmer" wrote in message
> $.dlg@40tude.net...
>
>>Documented research indicate that on Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:31:58 -0500,
>>Rocco
>>Moretti wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Ian Stirling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>100, 200, or 400W heaters will use the same amount of energy at the same
>>>>temperature, if they can maintain the temperature at all.
>>>
>>>Well, it'll depend on the efficiency of the heaters. A more efficient
>>>heater will use most of the electricity to heat the tank, whereas a less
>>>efficient heater will use less of the electricity for heating the tank,
>>>and the rest will be ... wasted ... as ... heat.
>>>
>>>Hmmm.
>>>
>>>Never mind then. Smile

>>
>>The correct statement is that the more efficient heaters dissipate more
>>joules of heat per watt of power consumed, than the less efficient
>>heaters.
>
>
> where does the wasted power go in inefficient heaters? if you can answer
> that one, you've invented perpetual motion machines.

Possibly radio waves or light. But more seriously, what if the mains
leads of the heater are too thin to carry the current efficiently and
dissipate heat themselves? But that doesn't mean the heater itself is
inefficient unless you regard the heater and leads as one single unit.

Nikki

Rene Brehmer · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Documented research indicate that on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:44:49 -0700,
Charles Spitzer wrote:

>> The correct statement is that the more efficient heaters dissipate more
>> joules of heat per watt of power consumed, than the less efficient
>> heaters.
>
> where does the wasted power go in inefficient heaters? if you can answer
> that one, you've invented perpetual motion machines.

The control curcuitry eat the rest. These days the differences between
heaters are more about the lifespan and the precision of the thermostatic
circuitry, rather than the real heating/power consumption efficiency. We're
talking differences in consumption of a couple W at best.

I never suggested that efficient heaters can emit more energy than they
consume, their control curcuitry simply use a lesser amount of the energy
consumed than the less efficient heaters. It's basically a difference in
the quality of the components used.

--
Rene Brehmer
aka Metalbunny

We have nothing to fear from free speech and free information on the
Internet, but pop-up advertising!

http://metalbunny.net/
My little mess of things...