R.0. Water

LadySamsara · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 4

I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS suggested
I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them? Can
a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
possible contamination. Thank you!

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>misc

Djay · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 33

My lfs sells there RO for $.20 per gallon compared to $.25 per gallon at the
supermarket. They both use the same technology. If the supermarket has a
machine out front, you can be sure that it wont have contaminated water
coming out of it.
But my question is why use R.O. in the first place? Unless you have a
specific need to have the purest water this practice is unadvisable. In
fact many aquarists actually have to add minerals etc. back into the R.O.
water! Is your tap water that bad? I've been using aged tap water for
over 5 years with no ill effects. Heck, I don't even use dechlor.
I believe it's a misnomer to use "pure water", when actually in most cases,
the minerals etc that come along with water changes are a bonus for your
aquarium's health.

HTH

DJay

wrote in message@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS suggested
> I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
> machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them? Can
> a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
> possible contamination. Thank you!
>

SG · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 56

In article , LadySamsara@webtv.net wrote:
>I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS suggested
>I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
>machine at the supermarket.

Most people find that in the longer term purchaseing an RO unit is
cheaper then bottled water. It depends on how much water you use.

I am not sure how much I would trust an RO machine in the grocery
store. It seems to me to be one of those things that is unregulated,
and may or may not be maintained properly. On the same token I
wouldn't trust bottled water either. I have seen a few shows were
bottle water was tested and found to contain all sorts of junk that
while safe for consumption, you wouldn't expect to find.

Djay · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 33

For your water conditions, I'd agree that RO water can and should be used.
In many caseses however, it is simply not necessary. Also, the experience
of the poster is always hard to determine and from the comment "Is this type
of water better for them? Can
a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
possible contamination."
I tend to think that the poster was relatively inexperienced and may have
been on the path of early fish termination! Smile

DJay

"D&M" wrote in message@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Djay,
> RO can help if you have a bad water supply. My city water for instance is
> very hard, and has a pH of 8.5-9.0. RO essentially should be absolute
> neutral water, but have no gH or kH, which isn't a good thing. A mix of a
> city water supply and RO water brings a decent balance of gH and kH, keeps
> the pH just about right, and has a buffer so there's no rapid pH swings.
> Pure RO will not have a buffer and can be considered dangerous as rapid
> inclines or declines in the pH are possible, and we all know how much fish
> like fast pH changes.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> "Djay" wrote in message
> $eu4$1@news.chatlink.com...
> > My lfs sells there RO for $.20 per gallon compared to $.25 per gallon at
> the
> > supermarket. They both use the same technology. If the supermarket has
a
> > machine out front, you can be sure that it wont have contaminated water
> > coming out of it.
> > But my question is why use R.O. in the first place? Unless you have a
> > specific need to have the purest water this practice is unadvisable. In
> > fact many aquarists actually have to add minerals etc. back into the
R.O.
> > water! Is your tap water that bad? I've been using aged tap water for
> > over 5 years with no ill effects. Heck, I don't even use dechlor.
> > I believe it's a misnomer to use "pure water", when actually in most
> cases,
> > the minerals etc that come along with water changes are a bonus for your
> > aquarium's health.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > DJay
> >
> > wrote in message
> > @storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > > I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS
suggested
> > > I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
> > > machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them?
Can
> > > a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
> > > possible contamination. Thank you!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

D&M · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 52

Hey Djay,
RO can help if you have a bad water supply. My city water for instance is
very hard, and has a pH of 8.5-9.0. RO essentially should be absolute
neutral water, but have no gH or kH, which isn't a good thing. A mix of a
city water supply and RO water brings a decent balance of gH and kH, keeps
the pH just about right, and has a buffer so there's no rapid pH swings.
Pure RO will not have a buffer and can be considered dangerous as rapid
inclines or declines in the pH are possible, and we all know how much fish
like fast pH changes.

Cheers

"Djay" wrote in message$eu4$1@news.chatlink.com...
> My lfs sells there RO for $.20 per gallon compared to $.25 per gallon at
the
> supermarket. They both use the same technology. If the supermarket has a
> machine out front, you can be sure that it wont have contaminated water
> coming out of it.
> But my question is why use R.O. in the first place? Unless you have a
> specific need to have the purest water this practice is unadvisable. In
> fact many aquarists actually have to add minerals etc. back into the R.O.
> water! Is your tap water that bad? I've been using aged tap water for
> over 5 years with no ill effects. Heck, I don't even use dechlor.
> I believe it's a misnomer to use "pure water", when actually in most
cases,
> the minerals etc that come along with water changes are a bonus for your
> aquarium's health.
>
> HTH
>
> DJay
>
> wrote in message
> @storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS suggested
> > I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
> > machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them? Can
> > a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
> > possible contamination. Thank you!
> >
>
>

LadySamsara · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 4

Thanks for all of the replies. I'll try to explain my water
conditions...but still being fairly new, maybe I am missing something.
I hope somebody can point me in the right direction.

Prior to my water supply company adding chloramines I never had any
problems. I used the dechlorinator and all was fine. Then they added
the chloramines and the LFS suggested using Ammo-Lock. This was about
the time I set up my 10 gallon tank, and when I brought the water to be
tested it showed high levels of ammonia, after using the dechlor. and
prior to adding any fish. During the cycle it was suggested I do
partial water changes to bring down the ammonia when it spiked real
high. The gal at the LFS said the water company was blasting the water
with chloramines and the water changes were making the ammonia worse.
She suggested the bottled spring water, which I have been using ever
since (November 2002). I have a 10 gallon tank and 3 Betta tanks, I go
through about 9 gallons a week (2 Betta tanks are unfiltered and
require full weekly water changes).

I considered using the tap water after I moved, even though it too
contained chloramines. I let it age a few weeks, then added the
appropriate amount of dechlor. (I tried both Amquel and Tetra Aqua
Safe). I tested it and high ammonia readings came back. Am I missing
something? Should it show high levels of ammonia after being treated?
I have the AP test tube kit.

I do hope someone can help me here....I am getting frustrated lugging
all this water from the store and making sure I always have it on hand.
Is there a way I can safely use my tap water? (Sorry if I rambled...as
I said I really don't understand the whole water thing too well). Thank
you!

D&M · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 52

To start with, any new tank, you're level will never be low in ammonia or
nitrtites/nitrates for quite a while, usually 3 weeks for a complete cycle,
enough time for the benefical bacteria to develope and "eat" the ammonia
nitrites. Chloramine in itself will not affect ammonia. So, that leaves a
couple things.

First, if you're using ammo-lock, stop. You'll be curing the problem at hand
for a short while, but your system will become dependant on it.

Next, leave your tank be for a while after you change the water and treat
it. I've seen people doing daily water changes every day for a month and
wondering why there's still ammonia... because the benificial bacteria
hasn't even has a chance to start growing.

Yes, ammonia and nitrites/nitrates arent healthy for a fish in heavy
quantities, but quite a few fish can tolerate it for quite a while without
permanant damage.

I'm no expert by no means, but this is what I would do.

1. Do a 20% change and pretend this is a new tank. When refilling the water,
rumor has it that it's safer to use a double dose of declor to remove
chloramines.

2. Don't touch the filter, if it's plugged with gunk, syphon some tank water
to clean it. Do not wash it under the tap.

3. Control feeding. Fish pretend they're hungry 24 hours a day,
realistically once or twice a day is fine, with the general rule of thumb,
as much as they can eat in 5 minutes. If you have an accident, overfeed,
just syphon the excess out, same as if you see any build up on the bottom of
the tank, just clean the small messes up.

4. Every third day, vacuum the gravel until you're removed the 20% water
volume, and refill as normal with declored water.

Now keep an eye on the ammonia levels, I've had mine off the scale a couple
time on newly set up tanks, and just do a quick change to bring them back
down a bit. Determining what a fish can tolerate is strictly in the owners
point of veiw. Higher pH can make the ammonia more toxic to the fish. Fish
will show tell-tale signs if they can't handle the level of ammonia, and as
soon as they show it, something has to be done to bring the level back down
right away.

Once the bacteria starts growing, the bacteria will double daily on the
amount of food it has available, which is the ammonia and nit's.

This bacteria will grow in your filter, in the gravel, on plants, in the
water, everywhere in the tank.

Eventually the ammonia level should disappear to nothing as the bacteria
grows.

Good example, there's people that do fishless cycles, they dump high amounts
of ammonia in the water, and viola, beneficial bacteria forms and clears it
out.

Again, I'm no expert by no means, just my point of view on this.

Cheers

wrote in message@storefull-2236.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Thanks for all of the replies. I'll try to explain my water
> conditions...but still being fairly new, maybe I am missing something.
> I hope somebody can point me in the right direction.
>
> Prior to my water supply company adding chloramines I never had any
> problems. I used the dechlorinator and all was fine. Then they added
> the chloramines and the LFS suggested using Ammo-Lock. This was about
> the time I set up my 10 gallon tank, and when I brought the water to be
> tested it showed high levels of ammonia, after using the dechlor. and
> prior to adding any fish. During the cycle it was suggested I do
> partial water changes to bring down the ammonia when it spiked real
> high. The gal at the LFS said the water company was blasting the water
> with chloramines and the water changes were making the ammonia worse.
> She suggested the bottled spring water, which I have been using ever
> since (November 2002). I have a 10 gallon tank and 3 Betta tanks, I go
> through about 9 gallons a week (2 Betta tanks are unfiltered and
> require full weekly water changes).
>
> I considered using the tap water after I moved, even though it too
> contained chloramines. I let it age a few weeks, then added the
> appropriate amount of dechlor. (I tried both Amquel and Tetra Aqua
> Safe). I tested it and high ammonia readings came back. Am I missing
> something? Should it show high levels of ammonia after being treated?
> I have the AP test tube kit.
>
> I do hope someone can help me here....I am getting frustrated lugging
> all this water from the store and making sure I always have it on hand.
> Is there a way I can safely use my tap water? (Sorry if I rambled...as
> I said I really don't understand the whole water thing too well). Thank
> you!
>

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

wrote in message@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS suggested
> I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
> machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them? Can
> a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
> possible contamination. Thank you!
>

It would depend on the type of fish you are keeping.
Bottled spring water is usually high in minerals and other elements.
RO water has had much of this stripped away. So much gets removed that RO
water on its own is unsuitable for fish. It can be mixed with the regular
water to achieve a desired level, or it can be made habitable by fish by
adding an RO supplement. The machines in supermarkets, or even gas stations
are safe, providing the units are properly serviced. Consider it safe.
Remember that different machines dispense different types of water.

Jim

Ben Vizzier · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 2

After having my 55g tank setup for quite I while I decided that I
wanted to bring down my gH and pH. It is a planted community tank with
DIY CO2 injection. I'm still experimenting with the CO2 injection
which also impacts the pH and kH of the tank.

I have been using peat with some success but that takes a lot of
planning.

I found that in the USA, you can get under-sink RO units for less than
$200 US. Some are just over $100 US on eBay. I bought one of these and
put it under my kitchen sink. It has helped me lower my pH and
hardness some.

I would like to reinforce the caution of using pure RO water for a
freshwater tank. I mix treated plain tap water with my RO water to
help provide some kH buffer and some trace minerals for the plants.
(I also use some fertilizers for the plants.)

Ben

In article , D&M
wrote:

> Hey Djay,
> RO can help if you have a bad water supply. My city water for instance is
> very hard, and has a pH of 8.5-9.0. RO essentially should be absolute
> neutral water, but have no gH or kH, which isn't a good thing. A mix of a
> city water supply and RO water brings a decent balance of gH and kH, keeps
> the pH just about right, and has a buffer so there's no rapid pH swings.
> Pure RO will not have a buffer and can be considered dangerous as rapid
> inclines or declines in the pH are possible, and we all know how much fish
> like fast pH changes.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> "Djay" wrote in message
> $eu4$1@news.chatlink.com...
> > My lfs sells there RO for $.20 per gallon compared to $.25 per gallon at
> the
> > supermarket. They both use the same technology. If the supermarket has a
> > machine out front, you can be sure that it wont have contaminated water
> > coming out of it.
> > But my question is why use R.O. in the first place? Unless you have a
> > specific need to have the purest water this practice is unadvisable. In
> > fact many aquarists actually have to add minerals etc. back into the R.O.
> > water! Is your tap water that bad? I've been using aged tap water for
> > over 5 years with no ill effects. Heck, I don't even use dechlor.
> > I believe it's a misnomer to use "pure water", when actually in most
> cases,
> > the minerals etc that come along with water changes are a bonus for your
> > aquarium's health.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > DJay
> >
> > wrote in message
> > @storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > > I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS suggested
> > > I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from a
> > > machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them? Can
> > > a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry about
> > > possible contamination. Thank you!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Djay · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 33

Ben,

The peat will lower your KH but CO2 will not. Increase in CO2 will lower
the pH, and a decrease in CO2 will increase the pH. As you said lowering
the KH with peat takes a lot of planning because you do not want to loose
the buffering capacity of KH. With KH of 0 or 1 a pH crash is not far
behind... Chuck Gadd has an excellent page that explains the relationship
of KH, CO2 and pH. Happy reading!

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

DJay

lower the pH
"Ben Vizzier" wrote in message%bviz2@rabbittales.org...
> After having my 55g tank setup for quite I while I decided that I
> wanted to bring down my gH and pH. It is a planted community tank with
> DIY CO2 injection. I'm still experimenting with the CO2 injection
> which also impacts the pH and kH of the tank.
>
> I have been using peat with some success but that takes a lot of
> planning.
>
> I found that in the USA, you can get under-sink RO units for less than
> $200 US. Some are just over $100 US on eBay. I bought one of these and
> put it under my kitchen sink. It has helped me lower my pH and
> hardness some.
>
> I would like to reinforce the caution of using pure RO water for a
> freshwater tank. I mix treated plain tap water with my RO water to
> help provide some kH buffer and some trace minerals for the plants.
> (I also use some fertilizers for the plants.)
>
> Ben
>
> In article , D&M
> wrote:
>
> > Hey Djay,
> > RO can help if you have a bad water supply. My city water for instance
is
> > very hard, and has a pH of 8.5-9.0. RO essentially should be absolute
> > neutral water, but have no gH or kH, which isn't a good thing. A mix of
a
> > city water supply and RO water brings a decent balance of gH and kH,
keeps
> > the pH just about right, and has a buffer so there's no rapid pH swings.
> > Pure RO will not have a buffer and can be considered dangerous as rapid
> > inclines or declines in the pH are possible, and we all know how much
fish
> > like fast pH changes.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > "Djay" wrote in message
> > $eu4$1@news.chatlink.com...
> > > My lfs sells there RO for $.20 per gallon compared to $.25 per gallon
at
> > the
> > > supermarket. They both use the same technology. If the supermarket
has a
> > > machine out front, you can be sure that it wont have contaminated
water
> > > coming out of it.
> > > But my question is why use R.O. in the first place? Unless you have a
> > > specific need to have the purest water this practice is unadvisable.
In
> > > fact many aquarists actually have to add minerals etc. back into the
R.O.
> > > water! Is your tap water that bad? I've been using aged tap water
for
> > > over 5 years with no ill effects. Heck, I don't even use dechlor.
> > > I believe it's a misnomer to use "pure water", when actually in most
> > cases,
> > > the minerals etc that come along with water changes are a bonus for
your
> > > aquarium's health.
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > DJay
> > >
> > > wrote in message
> > > @storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> > > > I have been using bottled spring water for my tanks. One LFS
suggested
> > > > I switch to R.O. water and said they sell it or I could get it from
a
> > > > machine at the supermarket. Is this type of water better for them?
Can
> > > > a machine at the supermarket be trusted for safe water? I worry
about
> > > > possible contamination. Thank you!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

Lobos · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

LadySamsara@webtv.net wrote in message news:...
> Thanks for all of the replies. I'll try to explain my water
> conditions...but still being fairly new, maybe I am missing something.
> I hope somebody can point me in the right direction.
>
> Prior to my water supply company adding chloramines I never had any
> problems. I used the dechlorinator and all was fine. Then they added
> the chloramines and the LFS suggested using Ammo-Lock. This was about
> the time I set up my 10 gallon tank, and when I brought the water to be
> tested it showed high levels of ammonia, after using the dechlor. and
> prior to adding any fish. During the cycle it was suggested I do
> partial water changes to bring down the ammonia when it spiked real
> high. The gal at the LFS said the water company was blasting the water
> with chloramines and the water changes were making the ammonia worse.
> She suggested the bottled spring water, which I have been using ever
> since (November 2002). I have a 10 gallon tank and 3 Betta tanks, I go
> through about 9 gallons a week (2 Betta tanks are unfiltered and
> require full weekly water changes).

> I considered using the tap water after I moved, even though it too
> contained chloramines. I let it age a few weeks, then added the
> appropriate amount of dechlor. (I tried both Amquel and Tetra Aqua
> Safe). I tested it and high ammonia readings came back. Am I missing
> something? Should it show high levels of ammonia after being treated?
> I have the AP test tube kit.
>
> I do hope someone can help me here....I am getting frustrated lugging
> all this water from the store and making sure I always have it on hand.
> Is there a way I can safely use my tap water? (Sorry if I rambled...as
> I said I really don't understand the whole water thing too well). Thank
> you!

Amquel does detoxify chloramines by breaking the chloramine into
ammonia and chlorine, then it neutralizes the chlorine and ammonia.
After treating with Amquel test kits will still test positive for
ammonia, but it is not toxic to the tank inhabitants. If chloramines
is your only problem, then don't go the RO route it is more expensive
just use Amquel.

To the person that stated that RO water is needed in water with a pH
of 8-9, you can successfully grow plants with a pH in that range. I
have grown plants in pH 8.5 water for 4 years and with CO2 injection
you can bring it down to 6.5-7.

Lobos

LadySamsara · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 4

Amquel does detoxify chloramines by breaking the chloramine into ammonia
and chlorine, then it neutralizes the chlorine and ammonia. After
treating with Amquel test kits will still test positive for ammonia, but
it is not toxic to the tank inhabitants.

Thanks, Lobos, for clarifying that for me. I knew that Ammo-Lock would
still show positive tests results but was not aware Amquel would as
well. I also have Tetra Aqua Safe, is that just as good to use? I have
read that double the dose should be used for chloramines...is this
correct?

And one more quick question....How shall I change over to the treated
tap water? I know I should do it gradually...any suggestions?

Thank you so much....I may just get this water thing after all!