Newbie questions - tank set up

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

Hello,

Well, after some very helpful advice here, we have basically settled on
Pseudotropheus saulosi for our new tank. I have even found a couple of
shops that stock them (no mean feat, and none nearby !!).

Anyway, I now have a few questions about the tank set up itself. The
tank is going to be 24"x24" (height not yet determined, see below) and
will contain 3 males and 6 females. OK, the questions ...

*) Does it matter what height the tank is ? I was wondering about a 24"
high tank. Other than the problems of getting your hand in to the
bottom, are there any reasons not to go for a deeper tank ?

*) Given that we have pretty soft water here, what would be a good
substrate ? Crushed coral was mentioned. Any comments ? How long would I
have to leave the water in for it to get hard enough ?

*) Would it be sensible/possible to put anything else in there ? I was
thinking mainly of bottom-dwelling fish. On the one hand, if the P.S.
use all the space, I don't want to take away their space, but if they
are mainly middle or top-dwellers, it might be an idea to have something
down the bottom.

*) If the answer to the previous question is "yes", would a synodontis
velifer be appropriate ? We bought three for our tropical tank and one
of them has grown quite a bit bigger than the others. It would be nice
to move him to a tank where he has free run of the bottom, but only if
he will live happily with the P.S.

*) Will the P.S. eat plants ? If possible, I would like to grow some
plants in the tank, but I'm not going to bother trying if they will view
them as a salad !! If yes, are there any kind that would fare better
than others ?

*) What about caves ? These fish seem to like them. Do I just put in
some flower pots, or is there more to it than that ? What size pots and
how many ? I was wondering about building a rock/pot pile in one corner.
Is this sensible ?

*) Does anyone know of any sites with pictures of cichlid tanks ? I've
seen plenty pictures of just the fish, but I'm looking for idea how to
arrange the tank. I'm new to cichlids, so I don't know what is best.

Sorry for all the questions. Thanx in advance for any answers.

Alan

--
Alan Silver

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>cichlids

rmc · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 42

"Alan Silver"

wrote in message ++EwhV@nospamthankyou.spam...
> Hello,
>
> Well, after some very helpful advice here, we have basically settled
on
> Pseudotropheus saulosi for our new tank. I have even found a couple
of
> shops that stock them (no mean feat, and none nearby !!).
>
> Anyway, I now have a few questions about the tank set up itself. The
> tank is going to be 24"x24" (height not yet determined, see below)
and
> will contain 3 males and 6 females. OK, the questions ...
>
> *) Does it matter what height the tank is ? I was wondering about a
24"
> high tank. Other than the problems of getting your hand in to the
> bottom, are there any reasons not to go for a deeper tank ?
>
> *) Given that we have pretty soft water here, what would be a good
> substrate ? Crushed coral was mentioned. Any comments ? How long
would I
> have to leave the water in for it to get hard enough ?
>
> *) Would it be sensible/possible to put anything else in there ? I
was
> thinking mainly of bottom-dwelling fish. On the one hand, if the
P.S.
> use all the space, I don't want to take away their space, but if
they
> are mainly middle or top-dwellers, it might be an idea to have
something
> down the bottom.
>
> *) If the answer to the previous question is "yes", would a
synodontis
> velifer be appropriate ? We bought three for our tropical tank and
one
> of them has grown quite a bit bigger than the others. It would be
nice
> to move him to a tank where he has free run of the bottom, but only
if
> he will live happily with the P.S.
>
> *) Will the P.S. eat plants ? If possible, I would like to grow some
> plants in the tank, but I'm not going to bother trying if they will
view
> them as a salad !! If yes, are there any kind that would fare better
> than others ?
>
> *) What about caves ? These fish seem to like them. Do I just put in
> some flower pots, or is there more to it than that ? What size pots
and
> how many ? I was wondering about building a rock/pot pile in one
corner.
> Is this sensible ?
>
> *) Does anyone know of any sites with pictures of cichlid tanks ?
I've
> seen plenty pictures of just the fish, but I'm looking for idea how
to
> arrange the tank. I'm new to cichlids, so I don't know what is best.
>
> Sorry for all the questions. Thanx in advance for any answers.
>
> Alan
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

--
A 24-inch tank is a bit small for Pseudotropheus and I will guarantee
that if you put 3 males with any females in that tank you will have
dead fish. A 48-inch tank would be far better and no more than 2
males if you have females too. You can figure that these will get to
be 4-inches and hyper-active or aggressive if you prefer to call it
that. The males usually prefer to dig their own caves under a rock
for spawning purposes so the substrate should be something small
enough for them to do the landscaping. The other fish will need
escape routes more than caves. Places that provide more than one exit
are best. The tank length is far more important than the height with
this fish. Height will provide more gallons of water which will help
minimize the fluctuation of your water parameters when doing water
changes but other than that, is does little to help a Pseudotropheus.

What is the ph of your tapwater? "Somewhat soft" isn't very
informative. My tapwater ph is 7.8 and works just fine for my Malawi
and Tanganyika fish. Crushed coral is fine for substrate but if you
want to use it for buffering your water you will obtain better results
placing some in your filter or where water can run through it. This
should give you a ph of 8.0 - 8.4 Just keep in mind that ammonia is
far more toxic in high ph and overfeeding or lack of water changes
will have negative effects.

Synodontis are generally good tankmates but may interrupt the spawning
of mouth brooders for their own spawns.

Many people have great success with plants and Malawi species but I
would strongly recommend using plastic. Cichlids love to dig next to
objects and plants often times get uprooted. Plants also need carbon
dioxide to thrive and the harder water will tend to keep the dissolved
carbon dioxide levels too low.

A very informative site for you to check out is
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , rmc
writes
>A 24-inch tank is a bit small for Pseudotropheus and I will guarantee
>that if you put 3 males with any females in that tank you will have
>dead fish.

Hmm, I was basing this on the outcome of discussions in this newsgroup.

What stocking levels would you recommend with that size tank ?

>The tank length is far more important than the height with this fish.
>Height will provide more gallons of water which will help minimize the
>fluctuation of your water parameters when doing water changes but other
>than that, is does little to help a Pseudotropheus.

Tank size is restricted by the available space. I would like a bigger
tank, but I just can't fit one in.

OTOH water changes are not a problem as I tend to do 10% changes twice a
week.

>What is the ph of your tapwater? "Somewhat soft" isn't very
>informative.

Sorry, forgot to mention that. It's 7.0 out of the tap.

>Synodontis are generally good tankmates but may interrupt the spawning
>of mouth brooders for their own spawns.

Do you mean the synodontis' spawning will interrupt ? If so, this won't
be a problem as I was only going to put the one big one in there, not
all three. The other two can stay where they are.

>Many people have great success with plants and Malawi species but I
>would strongly recommend using plastic. Cichlids love to dig next to
>objects and plants often times get uprooted. Plants also need carbon
>dioxide to thrive and the harder water will tend to keep the dissolved
>carbon dioxide levels too low.

OK, good point.

>A very informative site for you to check out is
>http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com

Thanx I'll have a look.

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver

Marc88 · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

P. Saulosi are a great fish. But your tank size is way too small. Height is
mostly irrelevant. The surface area of the water is critical in determining
how much oxygen gets to your fish. Long, wide, and low beats short, short,
and high.

I'll illustrate this point by taking it to an extreme. Suppose you had a
tank that was 6 inches long, 6 inches wide, and 30 feet high. It would
basically be a 55 gallon tank and any fish you put in it would suffocate
almost immediately. Your much better off with a tank that'ss 5ft long , 1.3
ft deep and 14 inches high.

Aside from oxygen, the next issue is swimming room. Mbuna are proficient and
speedy swimmers. They won't even be able to get off the blocks in a 2ft
tank. And that's assuming it's empty. Fill it with the rocks that they like
and your fish will basically be in a prison rather than a habitat.

I'm being blunt, but you have to do some further research. A 2ft by 2ft tank
is inappropriate for Mbuna cichlids. I know you don't have the space, but
you wouldn't want to create a bad home for a beautiful saulosi. There's got
to be something you can do to your house or apartment to create space for a
4ft tank. Throw something out, move something around. Get rid of that
bookcase or that dresser. If your girlfriend or wife is the problem, get rid
of her. Just kidding.

Also, 2ft by 2ft can house maybe 3 small Mbuna like maybe yellow labs. 9
saulosi in this tank is not a good plan at all. I wouldn't put ONE Mbuna in
a 2ft by 2ft tank, let alone 9. Again, I'm not being harsh to criticize you,
only to inform you.

Also, your planning on males and females. Well, obviously they're going to
breed. What do you plan to do with the babies? Your going to need another
tank. So just get a nice big tank now, do it right the first time and make
everyone happy (especially you - imagine your saulosis darting around their
nice, long digs with the babies hanging out in the rock crevices. It'll look
awesome).

As for substrate, crushed coral is OK, but as someone else said, throw it in
your filter where the water can run over it and dissolve the calcium.

Of course, opinions are like you know what, everybody has one. So don't take
my word for it. I'd rather you hear this from people with lots of experience
raising and breeding Mbuna cichlids. You're obviously psyched for your
saulosi and want to give them a good home. There is an internet radio show
dedicated to keeping freshwater fish. The site is www.petfishtalk.com

Please go to that site and check out the archived radio shows. Several of
them have segments dedicated to Mbunas and their requirements. The show is
very informative and you definitely need to hear more information before you
take on this responsibility.

Trust me a 2ft tank is a mistake. Don't make it.

-Marc

"Alan Silver"
wrote in
message ++EwhV@nospamthankyou.spam...
> Hello,
>
> Well, after some very helpful advice here, we have basically settled on
> Pseudotropheus saulosi for our new tank. I have even found a couple of
> shops that stock them (no mean feat, and none nearby !!).
>
> Anyway, I now have a few questions about the tank set up itself. The
> tank is going to be 24"x24" (height not yet determined, see below) and
> will contain 3 males and 6 females. OK, the questions ...
>
> *) Does it matter what height the tank is ? I was wondering about a 24"
> high tank. Other than the problems of getting your hand in to the
> bottom, are there any reasons not to go for a deeper tank ?
>
> *) Given that we have pretty soft water here, what would be a good
> substrate ? Crushed coral was mentioned. Any comments ? How long would I
> have to leave the water in for it to get hard enough ?
>
> *) Would it be sensible/possible to put anything else in there ? I was
> thinking mainly of bottom-dwelling fish. On the one hand, if the P.S.
> use all the space, I don't want to take away their space, but if they
> are mainly middle or top-dwellers, it might be an idea to have something
> down the bottom.
>
> *) If the answer to the previous question is "yes", would a synodontis
> velifer be appropriate ? We bought three for our tropical tank and one
> of them has grown quite a bit bigger than the others. It would be nice
> to move him to a tank where he has free run of the bottom, but only if
> he will live happily with the P.S.
>
> *) Will the P.S. eat plants ? If possible, I would like to grow some
> plants in the tank, but I'm not going to bother trying if they will view
> them as a salad !! If yes, are there any kind that would fare better
> than others ?
>
> *) What about caves ? These fish seem to like them. Do I just put in
> some flower pots, or is there more to it than that ? What size pots and
> how many ? I was wondering about building a rock/pot pile in one corner.
> Is this sensible ?
>
> *) Does anyone know of any sites with pictures of cichlid tanks ? I've
> seen plenty pictures of just the fish, but I'm looking for idea how to
> arrange the tank. I'm new to cichlids, so I don't know what is best.
>
> Sorry for all the questions. Thanx in advance for any answers.
>
> Alan
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

rmc · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 42

> Hmm, I was basing this on the outcome of discussions in this
newsgroup.
>
> What stocking levels would you recommend with that size tank ?
>

The Mbuna (Melanochromis, Psuedotropheus, Metriaclima, etc.) are all
hyper-active. When they mature the males will start to fight for
dominance. That size tank will only support one dominant male per
species and the rest are likely to get killed. It is not the size in
gallons that is as important to these fish, but the distance they have
available to get away from the aggressor. The dominant male is
relentless and does not get tired from chasing others. The males will
also want to spawn continuously so one female can get harassed to
death. Two females will often result with the male and one female
killing the odd one. I would suggest 1 male and 1 female or 3-4
females if you are set on Mbuna and maybe some fast swimming dither
fish like 5 or 6 Danios. When a female is holding she will want to be
alone. If you could provide a sanctuary that she can fit in but the
male can't, that would be good.

There is an unwritten rule that suggests over-crowding is a good idea
with Mbuna that I generally agree with but not in every aspect.

It is possible to have other species in the tank without carnage as
long as they don't resemble each other too much. Yellow Labs would
probably be fine. Another alternative if you're not necessarily
looking for these fish to spawn is to keep males only. Multiple males
of the same species will generally show good color and they will not
fight as much if there are no females in the tank. But throw in one
female and all hell will break loose. In fact, in some
societies.........oops, we better not go there right now.

With an all-male setup your major restriction would be how much
bio-load your system can handle so your tank would probably be fine.

> Sorry, forgot to mention that. It's 7.0 out of the tap.

7.0 would be too soft IME. An Emperor filter would work great with
the media cartridge filled with crushed coral and/or you can buy
buffers but they get to be expensive.

> Do you mean the synodontis' spawning will interrupt ? If so, this
won't
> be a problem as I was only going to put the one big one in there,
not
> all three. The other two can stay where they are.

Yes, the Synodontis will wait until a mouth brooder is spawning and
then lay their eggs where the spawning is taking place. The cichlid
female picks up these eggs and incubates them. The catfish eggs hatch
first and the fry eat all the other eggs so the cichlid later spits
out a batch of Syno's. It's actually a very clever system and
interesting to watch. Keep that in mind if you get to many cichlid
fry.

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Marc88
writes

>Trust me a 2ft tank is a mistake. Don't make it.

I won't. Thanx for the advice. I'm very serious in wanting to do this
right. I have kept fish for enough years to know that it pays to find
out what you are doing before you start.

Looks like it's back to the drawing board. Do you have any
recommendations for that sized tank ? Bright and colourful is the wife's
requirement Wink

Thanx

--
Alan Silver

rmc · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 42

> I won't. Thanx for the advice. I'm very serious in wanting to do
this
> right. I have kept fish for enough years to know that it pays to
find
> out what you are doing before you start.
>
> Looks like it's back to the drawing board. Do you have any
> recommendations for that sized tank ? Bright and colourful is the
wife's
> requirement Wink

>
> Thanx
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

--
You could make it a little "Nemo" tank like Tetra. Smile

LOL JUST
KIDDING!!!

With that size tank and a "Bright & Colorful" requirement, I would be
tempted to try a planted aquarium and keep small schooling fish like
Tetras. You would need a nutrient-rich substrate, some type of CO2
induction, and strong lighting for the best results. Soft water would
help also. Oh yeah! You would need some plants too. One of the
tricks with planted tanks is to put enough plants in right from the
start to use up all the nutrients in the water. This will keep algae
from forming on the glass.

A few friends of mine make a substantial amount of pocket change
selling the cuttings to the LFS or at the local fish club auctions.

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , rmc
writes
>You could make it a little "Nemo" tank like Tetra. Smile

LOL JUST
>KIDDING!!!

Yeah, good idea. Maybe I could get the kids to wee in the tank, save
lugging buckets of water.

You know, those red tailed catfish look cute. Maybe I'll have half a
dozen of them, along with a few piranhas, some freshwater crabs and a
turtle or two. Oh and don't forget to throw in a bunch of seahorses !!

Now let me see, buy tank, take home, fill up, empty in fish. Should take
an hour or so.

;-(

It would be funny if it weren't so true ;-(

>With that size tank and a "Bright & Colorful" requirement, I would be
>tempted to try a planted aquarium and keep small schooling fish like
>Tetras. You would need a nutrient-rich substrate, some type of CO2
>induction, and strong lighting for the best results. Soft water would
>help also. Oh yeah! You would need some plants too. One of the
>tricks with planted tanks is to put enough plants in right from the
>start to use up all the nutrients in the water. This will keep algae
>from forming on the glass.

Funnily enough, this whole thing started 'cos we were considering a
heavily planted tank with a few angels and a school of cardinal tetras
!!

Looks like we are going back to that idea. Cichlids seem out of the
question. We are very vaguely contemplating marine, but this looks hard
and expensive.

Our other tank is heavily planted, so we know what we are doing there
(as much as anyone ever does with plants !!).

>A few friends of mine make a substantial amount of pocket change
>selling the cuttings to the LFS or at the local fish club auctions.

Been there, done that Wink

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Jaroslav Vopalensky
writes

>Anyway, I agree with Marc, its best to buy the biggest tank possible.
>If you like fish, you WILL do it anyway, sooner or later. So why not
>save yourself time and money and do it in the first place? Wink

Thanx for the info. It's not a matter of time and money, it's a matter
of space. I would love a bigger tank, but I've nowhere to put one. This
is the biggest I can manage (until I rearrange the house or move !!)

--
Alan Silver

Kevin Bauman · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

"Alan Silver"
wrote in
message ++Ewy2@nospamthankyou.spam...
> In article , Jaroslav Vopalensky
> writes
>
> >Anyway, I agree with Marc, its best to buy the biggest tank possible.
> >If you like fish, you WILL do it anyway, sooner or later. So why not
> >save yourself time and money and do it in the first place? Wink

>
> Thanx for the info. It's not a matter of time and money, it's a matter
> of space. I would love a bigger tank, but I've nowhere to put one. This
> is the biggest I can manage (until I rearrange the house or move !!)
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>
I've kept and bred saulosi for several years (although I'm not keeping them
right now and I did keep them in a single species 55 gallon tank.) They
are, after all, dwarf mbuna so they're not quite like the typical
pseudotropheus and melanochromis. My males grew to about 3 1/2" and the
females about 3" long. Mine were too timid to hold their own in a community
tank of other pseudos and melanos. But I will admit that intraspecies
aggression is quite high. And male saulosi on male saulosi aggression is
extreme at times. The male does chase all females constantly but I started
with 2 males and 4 females so the aggression was pretty spread out and no
one ever got hurt.

I don't really disagree with the other advise here. A 2 ft tank is not at
all ideal. I'm just not bang-my-fist-on-the-table sure that the 2 ft by 2
ft tank is doomed to eventual failure either. Some people do keep them
successfully in 30 gallon tanks.

Kevin
http://home.columbus.rr.com/baumancichlids/Saulosi.htm

Alan Silver · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 70

In article , Kevin Bauman
writes
>I don't really disagree with the other advise here. A 2 ft tank is not
>at all ideal. I'm just not bang-my-fist-on-the-table sure that the 2
>ft by 2 ft tank is doomed to eventual failure either. Some people do
>keep them successfully in 30 gallon tanks.

Thanx for the advice. Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for
bright coloured cichlids that *could* be kept in a 24" cubed tank ?

I'm quite willing to hear that this size is plain unsuitable for
cichlids, it's just that if there are any that will live happily in
there, I would like to know so I can consider them.

TIA

--
Alan Silver

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

There are a fair number of cichlids that will fit in your cube tank. I
don't know if you have previously listed your water parameters, so the
following is a partial list at best.
Nannachromis tranvestitus-perhaps not a beginner's fish
Anomalochromis thomasi-fairly peaceful
Any Hemichromis spp-as long as there are no other fish
Any Pelvicachromis spp-peaceful as a rule
Pseudocrenilabrus multicolor-small size and a mouthbrooder, tends to dig
Herotilapia multispinosa-fairly peaceful and a breeze to keep
Any Thorichthys spp-the firemouths-just go for the smaller ones
Any Apistogramma spp-the commonly available ones would be the best choices
Crenicichla compressiceps-perhaps the smallest pike cichlid
Any Laetacara spp-peaceful even in groups
Any Nannacara spp-the Goldeye, N.anomala is one of my all time favourites
Either Microgeophagus spp-easy to care for
I'll leave the Rift Lake cichlids as there are others with more experience.
I have maintained Neolamprologs brevis, N.multifasciatus, and N. sp.
'Magarae', and would recommend them as worthy of consideration.
Your water parameters and planned tankmates will ultimately end up helping
you decide what will work best in your situation. That still leaves a lot
of cichlids to consider.

Jim

Alan Silver
wrote in
message $+EwZ9@nospamthankyou.spam...
> In article , Kevin Bauman
> writes
> >I don't really disagree with the other advise here. A 2 ft tank is not
> >at all ideal. I'm just not bang-my-fist-on-the-table sure that the 2
> >ft by 2 ft tank is doomed to eventual failure either. Some people do
> >keep them successfully in 30 gallon tanks.
>
> Thanx for the advice. Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for
> bright coloured cichlids that *could* be kept in a 24" cubed tank ?
>
> I'm quite willing to hear that this size is plain unsuitable for
> cichlids, it's just that if there are any that will live happily in
> there, I would like to know so I can consider them.
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

Jaroslav Vopalensky · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

> I don't really disagree with the other advise here. A 2 ft tank is not at
> all ideal. I'm just not bang-my-fist-on-the-table sure that the 2 ft by 2
> ft tank is doomed to eventual failure either. Some people do keep them
> successfully in 30 gallon tanks.

I've kept (and bred) them in 20 gal long (31 inch.) tank for almost a year
and then in 33 gal of the exact same footprint. They are pretty docile IMHO
(at least for a mbuna)... It will be tricky, but I think it can be done...

Jaroslav Vopalensky · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

> Thanx for the advice. Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for
> bright coloured cichlids that *could* be kept in a 24" cubed tank ?
>
> I'm quite willing to hear that this size is plain unsuitable for
> cichlids, it's just that if there are any that will live happily in
> there, I would like to know so I can consider them.

Since you have soft water and like plants, you might want to look into
Apistogrammas...

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

Alan Silver
wrote in
message $Ewh1@nospamthankyou.spam...
> In article , Jim Brown
> writes
> >Your water parameters and planned tankmates will ultimately end up
> >helping you decide what will work best in your situation. That still
> >leaves a lot of cichlids to consider.
>
> OK, let me tell you and then maybe you can resuggest !!
>
> Our water is pretty soft and is neutral out of the tap. My other tank
> has plumbing, allowing 10% water changes twice a week. I was planning on
> doing the same here.
>
> Does that help ? If you could comment on which cichlids would be
> suitable for a 24" cube with this water I would be grateful. Brightly
> coloured fish are the main priority.
>
> Thanx
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

Go back to the list I provided. Rather than play with the water, take
advantage of it. Scratch the Rift Lake shelldwellers, and the Apisto's (did
you check them al??) since you say they don't impress you. There are still
a lot to choose from even beyond the remainder of the list. Either check
out every one, or find another fish from some reference material and see if
it will fit in your water parameters and stay within a reasonable size. The
final choice will have to be yours, as I could never tell someone that this
fish is the one you must have. Brightly coloured may even only fit when
certain fish are in a reproductive cycle.
So many fish, so little tanks.

Jim