Mirror in the fishtank

Koi-Lo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 199

"Big Dummy" wrote in message $F_3.10238@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>
SNIP!

> Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.
==========================
I'm trying to picture the stress, fear and suffering going on in this tank.
For the sake of compassion can't you at least remove the other fish to
another tank since they cannot escape on their own as they would in the
wild? Or remove the green terror to a tank of it's own? How can you watch
such suffering and torture of this fish's victims? Sad

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>misc

fish lover · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 12

Would you put a wolf in the chicken house and hope he would reform and
ignore the chickens? I guess is no.

Same thing as fish. If he reguard something as food or competor, he
will go after it, no matter what you do. It takes millions of years to
form such things. You can not change it in few days/weeks/months.

>I have been having problems with a hyper-territorial green terror in my 75
>gal tank, he killed a gymnogeophageous meridonalis, a jaguar guapote, two
>plecostomus and a synuspillum, chewed up two severums and a red devil so
>badly they had to be removed, beaten up with no tails.
>
>Thing is, I like this green terror a lot. My girlfriend likes it even more,
>mistakenly thinking it's a female, she named it Brigid for the Celtic
>Goddess of war. So I want to keep it, therefore the obvious answer to trade
>him in or flush him isn't an option, at least until everything else fails..
>I want to exhaust every other option first.
>
>So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
>several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when he
>realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them. I put in
>a couple of mbuna (a cynotilapia afra and 2 demosoni) and he chases them
>occasionally but still picks on the other weaker fish more (usually
>targeting one at a time). I put in a pair of convicts hoping they would set
>up a territory and be able to defend it from him, which could absorb alot of
>aggression, but he's been able to prevent them from settling in anywhere and
>persecutes the male mercilessly. I put a large Oscar in the tank hoping he
>would be able to keep the peace (this has worked before), but even though it
>was twice his size, the Green Terror quickly intimidated him and now the
>Oscar is sulking on the bottom, refusing to eat.
>
>Finally I tried an old trick and put a little mirror from my neighbors
>cockatiel cage in the tank. This has finally seemed to work to some extent.
>The Green Terror spends hours squaring off with the mirror, posturing in
>front of it, wagging his tail, swiming around and a round it, and just
>staring at it sullenly from behind a rock (the mbuna and the female convicts
>also freak out on it). He finally saw a face he was scared of.
>
>My question now is, will the mirror leach any metals or glue into the tank
>which could hurt the fish? Can I leave it in there for a few hours a day or
>not? It doesn't seem to work as well when taped to the outside of the tank
>but I could do that as second tier alternative.
>
>Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.
>
>Jr
>

Nikki · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 62

red belly perona
nikku

"Big Dummy" wrote in message $H71.7588@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> RBP's?
>
>
> "Sean" wrote in message
> $VV4.513801@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
>> >>So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
>> >>several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when
> he
>> >>realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them.
>>
>> Heh, remove the silver dollars and put in 7-8 young RBPs. He'll learn
> fear
>> soon enough Wink

>>
>>
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>
>

fish lover · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 12

>"Koi-Lo"
>> "Big Dummy" wrote
>> SNIP!
>>
>> > Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.
>> ==========================
>> I'm trying to picture the stress, fear and suffering going on in this
>tank.
>> For the sake of compassion can't you at least remove the other fish to
>> another tank since they cannot escape on their own as they would in the
>> wild? Or remove the green terror to a tank of it's own? How can you
>watch
>> such suffering and torture of this fish's victims? Sad

>
>Give me a break! As opposed to the constant bliss and peace of nature I
>suppose?
>
>I gather from your nom-de plume you are more familiar with Koi and other
>pond fish and perhaps aren't familiar with keeping fish such as cichlids,
>but there is always at the least the potential of serious aggression going
>on in Cichlid tanks (most Cichlid species anyway). Same with a lot of other
>popular aquarium species: scat, puffers, clown knife, many catfish, etc.
>etc. It's a fact of life.
>
>I've been keeping cichlids for 20 years. In that time 95% of the time my
>tanks have been peaceful, hardly "terrorized" any more than fish are
>terrorized by being kept in a tank to begin with. With potentially
>territorial species such as I'm dealing with now finding a good initial
>balance is difficult, in this case I seem to have a particularly aggressive
>specimen. Once you have the balance established there is usually no more
>serious aggression unless something else changes it (like one of the fish
>grows much faster than the others or a mated pair forms for example)
>
>For that matter I've kept Green Terrors in Cichlid community tanks before
>with no problems. One problem is the fish sold under this trade name
>include at least two major regional subspecies or morphs and probably
>several individual species. I'm guessing the one we have is an unusually
>territorial example, or it could just be his individual personality.
>
>Anyway, I'd appreciate helpful responses instead of hand-wringing or
>sanctimony. For what it's worth, the fish that were killed were done in
>when I was out of town, the injured have been removed, the rest are holding
>their own currently and if they start to show signs of injury they will be
>removed as well.
>
>
>
>> --
>>
>> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
>> Aquariums since 1952
>> ~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Well, I used to keep cichlids tanks too and I knew for sure to take
the fish out when they were in trouble. I'm not talking about chasing
around, I'm talking about when they intend to kill. I'm having the
Discus now, they are still part of cichlids family last time I
checked.

The problem is, in the wild, they can get away from the aggresive
fish. In the fish tank, they can not. They will be chased 24 hours a
day till death. That's the difference. The best way is to do some
research to see what can be the tankmates BEFORE just put them in for
a try. In that way, you can also know if the water is suitable for the
tankmates too. There are lots of web sites that will give you the
information about which fish are good tankmates for a give type. I'm
sure you can find them easily.

As for the mirror, I would not put it in the tank because most of the
mirror I know use some kind of heavy metals at the back. It may leach
out to your water. That's just IMO.

Big Dummy · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

I have been having problems with a hyper-territorial green terror in my 75
gal tank, he killed a gymnogeophageous meridonalis, a jaguar guapote, two
plecostomus and a synuspillum, chewed up two severums and a red devil so
badly they had to be removed, beaten up with no tails.

Thing is, I like this green terror a lot. My girlfriend likes it even more,
mistakenly thinking it's a female, she named it Brigid for the Celtic
Goddess of war. So I want to keep it, therefore the obvious answer to trade
him in or flush him isn't an option, at least until everything else fails..
I want to exhaust every other option first.

So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when he
realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them. I put in
a couple of mbuna (a cynotilapia afra and 2 demosoni) and he chases them
occasionally but still picks on the other weaker fish more (usually
targeting one at a time). I put in a pair of convicts hoping they would set
up a territory and be able to defend it from him, which could absorb alot of
aggression, but he's been able to prevent them from settling in anywhere and
persecutes the male mercilessly. I put a large Oscar in the tank hoping he
would be able to keep the peace (this has worked before), but even though it
was twice his size, the Green Terror quickly intimidated him and now the
Oscar is sulking on the bottom, refusing to eat.

Finally I tried an old trick and put a little mirror from my neighbors
cockatiel cage in the tank. This has finally seemed to work to some extent.
The Green Terror spends hours squaring off with the mirror, posturing in
front of it, wagging his tail, swiming around and a round it, and just
staring at it sullenly from behind a rock (the mbuna and the female convicts
also freak out on it). He finally saw a face he was scared of.

My question now is, will the mirror leach any metals or glue into the tank
which could hurt the fish? Can I leave it in there for a few hours a day or
not? It doesn't seem to work as well when taped to the outside of the tank
but I could do that as second tier alternative.

Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.

Jr

URBANFLAGE · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

"Big Dummy" wrote in message$F_3.10238@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> I have been having problems with a hyper-territorial green terror in my 75
> gal tank, he killed a gymnogeophageous meridonalis, a jaguar guapote, two
> plecostomus and a synuspillum, chewed up two severums and a red devil so
> badly they had to be removed, beaten up with no tails.
>
> Thing is, I like this green terror a lot. My girlfriend likes it even
more,
> mistakenly thinking it's a female, she named it Brigid for the Celtic
> Goddess of war. So I want to keep it, therefore the obvious answer to
trade
> him in or flush him isn't an option, at least until everything else
fails..
> I want to exhaust every other option first.
>
> So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
> several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when he
> realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them. I put
in
> a couple of mbuna (a cynotilapia afra and 2 demosoni) and he chases them
> occasionally but still picks on the other weaker fish more (usually
> targeting one at a time). I put in a pair of convicts hoping they would
set
> up a territory and be able to defend it from him, which could absorb alot
of
> aggression, but he's been able to prevent them from settling in anywhere
and
> persecutes the male mercilessly. I put a large Oscar in the tank hoping
he
> would be able to keep the peace (this has worked before), but even though
it
> was twice his size, the Green Terror quickly intimidated him and now the
> Oscar is sulking on the bottom, refusing to eat.
>
> Finally I tried an old trick and put a little mirror from my neighbors
> cockatiel cage in the tank. This has finally seemed to work to some
extent.
> The Green Terror spends hours squaring off with the mirror, posturing in
> front of it, wagging his tail, swiming around and a round it, and just
> staring at it sullenly from behind a rock (the mbuna and the female
convicts
> also freak out on it). He finally saw a face he was scared of.
>
> My question now is, will the mirror leach any metals or glue into the tank
> which could hurt the fish? Can I leave it in there for a few hours a day
or
> not? It doesn't seem to work as well when taped to the outside of the
tank
> but I could do that as second tier alternative.
>
> Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.
>
> Jr
>

something I've done is set up a "virtual" tank divider out of many plastic
plants. After a water change put his favorite cave on one side of the tank
and build a thick "wall" out of plastic plants across the center (1/3) of
the tank - pile up rocks along the base of the plants so he can't see over
to the other 2/3s of the tank. this method has allowed me to spawn several
types of aggressive fish in the same tank (135 gal) set it up into thirds.

Brad

NetMax · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 614

"Gill Passman" wrote in message $0$1174$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> Big Dummy wrote:
>> I have been having problems with a hyper-territorial green terror in
>> my 75
>> gal tank, he killed a gymnogeophageous meridonalis, a jaguar guapote,
>> two
>> plecostomus and a synuspillum, chewed up two severums and a red devil
>> so
>> badly they had to be removed, beaten up with no tails.
>>
>> Thing is, I like this green terror a lot. My girlfriend likes it even
>> more,
>> mistakenly thinking it's a female, she named it Brigid for the Celtic
>> Goddess of war. So I want to keep it, therefore the obvious answer to
>> trade
>> him in or flush him isn't an option, at least until everything else
>> fails..
>> I want to exhaust every other option first.
>>
>> So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
>> several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when
>> he
>> realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them. I
>> put in
>> a couple of mbuna (a cynotilapia afra and 2 demosoni) and he chases
>> them
>> occasionally but still picks on the other weaker fish more (usually
>> targeting one at a time). I put in a pair of convicts hoping they
>> would set
>> up a territory and be able to defend it from him, which could absorb
>> alot of
>> aggression, but he's been able to prevent them from settling in
>> anywhere and
>> persecutes the male mercilessly. I put a large Oscar in the tank
>> hoping he
>> would be able to keep the peace (this has worked before), but even
>> though it
>> was twice his size, the Green Terror quickly intimidated him and now
>> the
>> Oscar is sulking on the bottom, refusing to eat.
>>
>> Finally I tried an old trick and put a little mirror from my neighbors
>> cockatiel cage in the tank. This has finally seemed to work to some
>> extent.
>> The Green Terror spends hours squaring off with the mirror, posturing
>> in
>> front of it, wagging his tail, swiming around and a round it, and just
>> staring at it sullenly from behind a rock (the mbuna and the female
>> convicts
>> also freak out on it). He finally saw a face he was scared of.
>>
>> My question now is, will the mirror leach any metals or glue into the
>> tank
>> which could hurt the fish? Can I leave it in there for a few hours a
>> day or
>> not? It doesn't seem to work as well when taped to the outside of the
>> tank
>> but I could do that as second tier alternative.
>>
>> Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.
>>
>> Jr
>>
>>
> OK - my cichlid experience is with Mbunas....quite a mean type of
> fish...when I read "mildly aggressive" I didn't realise it had context
> but it is all a learning experience....anyway the tank after 12 months
> has reached a balance...there have been battles and murders but I'm
> taking on board that this is a hazzard with keeping these type of fish
> (I've also rescued and returned some of the persecuted to the LFS - but
> not all)...we now call the current Alpha fish "Batter" - firstly
> because he will batter any other fish in the tank given half a chance
> and secondly because my mum reckons he is almost of a size to make a
> decent meal deep fried with batter - lol
>
> My feeling is that you are fighting a losing battle...keep the fish in
> question by all means but don't mix him with other cichlids who will
> also battle for their place in the pecking order - it will end in
> tears...find suitable tank mates (if there are any - no experience of
> green terrors) or house him on his own or with a suitable mate...
>
> By putting in a mirror you will be causing stress to the fish in
> question...he is now involved in a battle he cannot win...imagine
> spending your entire life face to face with whoever you perceive to be
> the enemy. It might detract attention from the others but is not a long
> term solution especially for the Green terror...decide which fish is
> important to you...if it is the others rehouse or rehome the green
> terror...if it is him rehouse or rehome the others...
>
> You could try messing with the tank decor and moving caves, add caves,
> add plants...this would be more effective long term than forcing the
> fish to believe there is another alpha in the tank...but in reality it
> just won't work IMO...if the Green Terror loses his alpha status
> another fish will step in and then it will be him that you are worrying
> about...
>
> So to sum up...rehouse him or send him back to the LFS...anything else
> from my experience with cichlids will end in tears....
>
> Gill

Mixing adult territorial cichlids is difficult enough, but trying to do
it with a hyper-aggressive will raise *your* blood pressure (_and_ tear
up other fish). I suspect the mirror is just winding him up more, but
drawing off a lot of his energy. The mirror's finish (silver oxide?)
might not be toxic (I don't know), but the mirror's effect probably won't
do his health any good, long term ;~). I've no opinion on dropping the
mirror in occasionally. You would just have to assess if he is better
with or without it. You could probably seal the mirror, or use a
different reflective material(?).

You could slip a sheet of glass lengthwise down the tank, so the Terror
gets front & center, and the fish in the back don't get mangled.
Picture a planted tank in the back with Neons ;~)... but it's one more
piece of glass to keep clean from algae (and compartment to filter).

You could also dump a lot of rocks and driftwood in, and just keep the
smaller Convicts. Make sure the openings are Convict sized and not GT
sized.

Maybe get him his own 55g and then re-populate the 75g with something
else. I've had a few old cichlids who just got too cantankerous to keep
any tankmates with. They certainly have their personality, and they
usually have great color, fins and a nuchal hump. Good luck (you might
need it).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Koi-Lo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 199

"NetMax" wrote in message $RM2.630127@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Maybe get him his own 55g and then re-populate the 75g with something
> else. I've had a few old cichlids who just got too cantankerous to keep
> any tankmates with. They certainly have their personality, and they
> usually have great color, fins and a nuchal hump. Good luck (you might
> need it).
=======================
If you just have to keep those nasty tempered cichlids there are always
those tank dividers the FSs sell. I haven't seen anyone on these NGs
mention them. They do come in handy and they do work.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }

Sean · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

>>So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
>>several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when he
>>realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them.

Heh, remove the silver dollars and put in 7-8 young RBPs. He'll learn fear
soon enough Wink

Sean

Big Dummy · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

RBP's?

"Sean" wrote in message$VV4.513801@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> >>So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
> >>several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but when
he
> >>realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them.
>
> Heh, remove the silver dollars and put in 7-8 young RBPs. He'll learn
fear
> soon enough Wink

>
>
>
> Sean
>
>

Big Dummy · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

"Koi-Lo"
> "Big Dummy" wrote
> SNIP!
>
> > Any other ideas on reducing this guys aggression would be welcome too.
> ==========================
> I'm trying to picture the stress, fear and suffering going on in this
tank.
> For the sake of compassion can't you at least remove the other fish to
> another tank since they cannot escape on their own as they would in the
> wild? Or remove the green terror to a tank of it's own? How can you
watch
> such suffering and torture of this fish's victims? Sad

Give me a break! As opposed to the constant bliss and peace of nature I
suppose?

I gather from your nom-de plume you are more familiar with Koi and other
pond fish and perhaps aren't familiar with keeping fish such as cichlids,
but there is always at the least the potential of serious aggression going
on in Cichlid tanks (most Cichlid species anyway). Same with a lot of other
popular aquarium species: scat, puffers, clown knife, many catfish, etc.
etc. It's a fact of life.

I've been keeping cichlids for 20 years. In that time 95% of the time my
tanks have been peaceful, hardly "terrorized" any more than fish are
terrorized by being kept in a tank to begin with. With potentially
territorial species such as I'm dealing with now finding a good initial
balance is difficult, in this case I seem to have a particularly aggressive
specimen. Once you have the balance established there is usually no more
serious aggression unless something else changes it (like one of the fish
grows much faster than the others or a mated pair forms for example)

For that matter I've kept Green Terrors in Cichlid community tanks before
with no problems. One problem is the fish sold under this trade name
include at least two major regional subspecies or morphs and probably
several individual species. I'm guessing the one we have is an unusually
territorial example, or it could just be his individual personality.

Anyway, I'd appreciate helpful responses instead of hand-wringing or
sanctimony. For what it's worth, the fish that were killed were done in
when I was out of town, the injured have been removed, the rest are holding
their own currently and if they start to show signs of injury they will be
removed as well.

> --
>
> Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
> Aquariums since 1952
> ~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }
>
>
>
>

Big Dummy · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

"fish lover" wrote in message
> Would you put a wolf in the chicken house and hope he would reform and
> ignore the chickens? I guess is no.
>
> Same thing as fish. If he reguard something as food or competor, he
> will go after it, no matter what you do. It takes millions of years to
> form such things. You can not change it in few days/weeks/months.
>
>
> >I have been having problems with a hyper-territorial green terror in my
75
>

No frankly to compare your analogy, it's a wolf in the wolf house, with a
couple of cape buffalo, a leopard and an elephant. Convicts, Red Devils,
Mbuna, even Oscars are all territorial. And yet while it might be news to
you it is possible to establish peaceful community tanks with any of those
species, given enough space and correct management.

DB

Sean · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Big Dummy" wrote in message $H71.7588@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> RBP's?

Big teeth...nasty rep...hunt in packs...red on the belly...

Sean

Big Dummy · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 29

Capiche

Yeah, in a pack they can be dangerous, their teeth seem to be able to take
chunks out of other fish. I've had them get bullied by cichlids too though
frankly, keep in mind they share the same habitat with many cichlid species,
some of which (Cichla Oceleris?) prey on rbp, as well as vice versa

DB

"Nikki" wrote in message@comcast.com...
> red belly perona
> nikku
>
>
>
>
> "Big Dummy" wrote in message
> $H71.7588@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> > RBP's?
> >
> >
> > "Sean" wrote in message
> > $VV4.513801@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> >> >>So I've been trying various methods to curb his aggression. I put in
> >> >>several silver dollars as dithers, he chased them for a while but
when
> > he
> >> >>realised he couldn't catch them just gave up and now ignores them.
> >>
> >> Heh, remove the silver dollars and put in 7-8 young RBPs. He'll learn
> > fear
> >> soon enough Wink

> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sean
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Sean · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Big Dummy" wrote in message $H71.9239@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Capiche
>
> Yeah, in a pack they can be dangerous, their teeth seem to be able to take
> chunks out of other fish. I've had them get bullied by cichlids too
> though
> frankly, keep in mind they share the same habitat with many cichlid
> species,
> some of which (Cichla Oceleris?) prey on rbp, as well as vice versa
>
> DB

Heh, yah that environment is a mostly "the wrong place at the wrong time"
kinda thing or vice versa. Kind of a matter of who is the biggest at the
meeting of nasties...

Sean