Is the load too much?

NetMax · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 56

"Cplus" wrote in message$x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this
morning)
> that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank (because
the
> 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin
(not
> sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
> mollies).
>
>
> The 10G tank already houses :
> 1 guppy
> 2 angels
> 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> a pleco
>
> and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It
doesn't
> seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.

Without knowing their sizes, the only thing for certain is that the
Angels and Pleco will outgrow a 10g. My guess is that you have exceeded
the 1"/gal guideline, so if it's a temporary situation, overfilter the
10g. It's not clear to me why you would have high nitrites in the 20g
when you have another tank running elsewhere. Take the aged filter media
out of the 10g filter and put it in the 20g filter beside its filter
media to cross-'pollinate' the bacteria.

ps:(some random observations) Guppies like a bit of salt in their water,
Mollies almost must have some salt and both prefer hard water with higher
than neutral pH. Angelfish & tetras come from a soft water environment,
neutral to acidic pH. Angelfish are carnivores, tetras are food, as the
Angels grow eventually they might catch on. Your pleco will need
supplemental feedings (algae wafers, zucchini etc) in a tank that small.

The back fin (caudal or tail fin) curling in (clamping) is a sign of
distress. It's a good thing you moved the Molly.

NetMax

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>misc

Cplus · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this morning)
that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank (because the
20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin (not
sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
mollies).

The 10G tank already houses :
1 guppy
2 angels
5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
a pleco

and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It doesn't
seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.

Cplus · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

"NetMax" wrote in message$Ec2.23749@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Without knowing their sizes, the only thing for certain is that the
> Angels and Pleco will outgrow a 10g. My guess is that you have exceeded
> the 1"/gal guideline, so if it's a temporary situation, overfilter the
> 10g. It's not clear to me why you would have high nitrites in the 20g
> when you have another tank running elsewhere. Take the aged filter media
> out of the 10g filter and put it in the 20g filter beside its filter
> media to cross-'pollinate' the bacteria.

They do look crowded but yes, it's a temporary thing. I'm hoping to put
back the mollie and perhaps the angels (they're being bullied by the mollies
tho) into the 20g once the nitrites go down. I have yet to test the ph and
hardness of water but will be doing that tomorrow.

Here's the 411 on the tanks. I bought the 20G first and set it up running
only the filter. A few weeks later I inherited a 10G that I decided to use
in my daughter's room. I began a fishless cycle on the 20G about a month
ago (by adding ammonia). The 10G went through cycling the old fashion way,
with a molly, 2 tetras and a pleco. It cycled quickly (was at 0ppm ammonia
at 2wks and nitrite free a week later). My 20G is not going along so well.
I must have added too much ammonia and now the tank is taking a long time to
come down from the nitrite (I read that somewhere). I just finished doing a
75% water change and that lowered the nitrites greatly. I will recheck in
the morning.

> ps:(some random observations) Guppies like a bit of salt in their water,
> Mollies almost must have some salt and both prefer hard water with higher
> than neutral pH. Angelfish & tetras come from a soft water environment,
> neutral to acidic pH. Angelfish are carnivores, tetras are food, as the
> Angels grow eventually they might catch on. Your pleco will need
> supplemental feedings (algae wafers, zucchini etc) in a tank that small.

So far the angels are leaving the tetras alone (trying more to stay away
from the mollies I think) Smile

> The back fin (caudal or tail fin) curling in (clamping) is a sign of
> distress. It's a good thing you moved the Molly.

It's still curling a little bit but stretches out when he's out of the way
of a current. The black lyretail doesn't seem to have that problem.

Thanks for the reply and the info!! Smile

greatly appreciated.

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

Marcus Fox wrote in message$rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Cplus" wrote in message
> $x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this morning)
> > that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank (because
> the
> > 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin
(not
> > sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
> > mollies).
> >
> >
> > The 10G tank already houses :
> > 1 guppy
> > 2 angels
> > 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> > a pleco
> >
> > and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It
> doesn't
> > seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.
>
> I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square inch of
> surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?
>
> Marcus
>
>

One fairly common standard (but not fully accurate) is one inch of fish per
gallon of water. That equates to about one inch of fish for every twenty
square inches of surface.
Using a standard 15 gallon tank with a surface of 12" x 24", that's 288
square inches, or more than twenty feet of fish using your rule.
Not all angels eat all tetras. A better statement would be almost all fish
will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouth.

Jim

Marcus Fox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 41

"Cplus" wrote in message$x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this morning)
> that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank (because
the
> 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin (not
> sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
> mollies).
>
>
> The 10G tank already houses :
> 1 guppy
> 2 angels
> 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> a pleco
>
> and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It
doesn't
> seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.

I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square inch of
surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?

Marcus

Cplus · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

these angels are small still and don't bother the tetras (the tetras are at
least 2 inches)
"Jim Brown" wrote in message$eF3.235787@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> Marcus Fox wrote in
message
> $rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Cplus" wrote in message
> > $x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this
morning)
> > > that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank
(because
> > the
> > > 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin
> (not
> > > sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
> > > mollies).
> > >
> > >
> > > The 10G tank already houses :
> > > 1 guppy
> > > 2 angels
> > > 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> > > a pleco
> > >
> > > and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It
> > doesn't
> > > seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.
> >
> > I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square inch of
> > surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
>
> One fairly common standard (but not fully accurate) is one inch of fish
per
> gallon of water. That equates to about one inch of fish for every twenty
> square inches of surface.
> Using a standard 15 gallon tank with a surface of 12" x 24", that's 288
> square inches, or more than twenty feet of fish using your rule.
> Not all angels eat all tetras. A better statement would be almost all
fish
> will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouth.
>
> Jim
>
>
>

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

Marcus Fox wrote in message$sh4.1227080@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> $eF3.235787@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > Marcus Fox wrote in
> message
> > $rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Cplus" wrote in message
> > > $x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > > The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this
> morning)
> > > > that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank
> (because
> > > the
> > > > 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin
> > (not
> > > > sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
> > > > mollies).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The 10G tank already houses :
> > > > 1 guppy
> > > > 2 angels
> > > > 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> > > > a pleco
> > > >
> > > > and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It
> > > doesn't
> > > > seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.
> > >
> > > I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square inch of
> > > surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?
> > >
> > > Marcus
> > >
> > >
> >
> > One fairly common standard (but not fully accurate) is one inch of fish
> per
> > gallon of water. That equates to about one inch of fish for every
twenty
> > square inches of surface.
> > Using a standard 15 gallon tank with a surface of 12" x 24", that's 288
> > square inches, or more than twenty feet of fish using your rule.
> > Not all angels eat all tetras. A better statement would be almost all
> fish
> > will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouth.
>
> Yes, I was a bit confused when I wrote that. But I find the 1 inch per
> gallon rule innacurate, particularly as a 1 inch fish weighs about 1/8th
of
> a 2 inch fish of the same shape, so it clearly uses more like 1/8th of the
> oxygen and produces a corresponding amount of waste products.
>
> This table should be a bit more accurate, therefore. (It is not mine)
>
> Size No. Per cm2 of surface Approx.
> cm2 per fish
>
> 1 400
> 2.5
> 2 110
> 9
> 3 50
> 20
> 4 25
> 40
> 5 12
> 80
> 6 8
> 125
> 8 5
> 200
> 10 2
> 500
> 12 1
> 750
> 15 1
> 1100
>
> HTH
>
> Marcus
>
>

You are right in that fish mass has more of an impact than fish length.
Unfortunately, while mass is definitely better but harder to estimate, there
are also factors such as activity, age, aquarium parameters, and types of
food.
Your chart still needs some work. The first column sets out square cm's of
fish but it might be better to set out cubic cm's. The second column sets
out square cm's, and how many one inch fish could be stocked in an aquarium
with a (roughly converted) one inch square surface.
You can try but I don't think anyone will deveope anything better than a
rough guide for 'bread and butter' fish from the LFS. Far better to learn
from the experience of others and add that to one's own observations.

Jim

Marcus Fox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 41

"Jim Brown" wrote in message$eF3.235787@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> Marcus Fox wrote in
message
> $rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Cplus" wrote in message
> > $x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this
morning)
> > > that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank
(because
> > the
> > > 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back fin
> (not
> > > sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're lyretail
> > > mollies).
> > >
> > >
> > > The 10G tank already houses :
> > > 1 guppy
> > > 2 angels
> > > 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> > > a pleco
> > >
> > > and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load? It
> > doesn't
> > > seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.
> >
> > I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square inch of
> > surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
>
> One fairly common standard (but not fully accurate) is one inch of fish
per
> gallon of water. That equates to about one inch of fish for every twenty
> square inches of surface.
> Using a standard 15 gallon tank with a surface of 12" x 24", that's 288
> square inches, or more than twenty feet of fish using your rule.
> Not all angels eat all tetras. A better statement would be almost all
fish
> will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouth.

Yes, I was a bit confused when I wrote that. But I find the 1 inch per
gallon rule innacurate, particularly as a 1 inch fish weighs about 1/8th of
a 2 inch fish of the same shape, so it clearly uses more like 1/8th of the
oxygen and produces a corresponding amount of waste products.

This table should be a bit more accurate, therefore. (It is not mine)

Size No. Per cm2 of surface Approx.
cm2 per fish

1 400
2.5
2 110
9
3 50
20
4 25
40
5 12
80
6 8
125
8 5
200
10 2
500
12 1
750
15 1
1100

HTH

Marcus

Marcus Fox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 41

"Jim Brown" wrote in message%AMa.7084$Ec2.549985@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> Marcus Fox wrote in
message
> $sh4.1227080@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> > $eF3.235787@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > >
> > > Marcus Fox wrote in
> > message
> > > $rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Cplus" wrote in message
> > > > $x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > > > The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me this
> > morning)
> > > > > that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon tank
> > (because
> > > > the
> > > > > 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their back
fin
> > > (not
> > > > > sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're
lyretail
> > > > > mollies).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The 10G tank already houses :
> > > > > 1 guppy
> > > > > 2 angels
> > > > > 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> > > > > a pleco
> > > > >
> > > > > and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a load?
It
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the tank.
> > > >
> > > > I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square inch
of
> > > > surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?
> > > >
> > > > Marcus
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > One fairly common standard (but not fully accurate) is one inch of
fish
> > per
> > > gallon of water. That equates to about one inch of fish for every
> twenty
> > > square inches of surface.
> > > Using a standard 15 gallon tank with a surface of 12" x 24", that's
288
> > > square inches, or more than twenty feet of fish using your rule.
> > > Not all angels eat all tetras. A better statement would be almost all
> > fish
> > > will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouth.
> >
> > Yes, I was a bit confused when I wrote that. But I find the 1 inch per
> > gallon rule innacurate, particularly as a 1 inch fish weighs about 1/8th
> of
> > a 2 inch fish of the same shape, so it clearly uses more like 1/8th of
the
> > oxygen and produces a corresponding amount of waste products.
> >
> > This table should be a bit more accurate, therefore. (It is not mine)
> >
> > Size No. Per cm2 of surface
Approx.
> > cm2 per fish
> >
> > 1 400
> > 2.5
> > 2 110
> > 9
> > 3 50
> > 20
> > 4 25
> > 40
> > 5 12
> > 80
> > 6 8
> > 125
> > 8 5
> > 200
> > 10 2
> > 500
> > 12 1
> > 750
> > 15 1
> > 1100
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
>
> You are right in that fish mass has more of an impact than fish length.
> Unfortunately, while mass is definitely better but harder to estimate,
there
> are also factors such as activity, age, aquarium parameters, and types of
> food.
> Your chart still needs some work. The first column sets out square cm's
of
> fish but it might be better to set out cubic cm's. The second column sets
> out square cm's, and how many one inch fish could be stocked in an
aquarium
> with a (roughly converted) one inch square surface.
> You can try but I don't think anyone will deveope anything better than a
> rough guide for 'bread and butter' fish from the LFS. Far better to learn
> from the experience of others and add that to one's own observations.
>
> Jim

The table wrapped. There was supposed to be three columns. The first column
was fish length in cm, and the last column ended up under the first column.
Here it is again

Size/cm Fish/1000 cm2 surface cm2 / fish

1 400 2.5
2 110 9
3 50 20
4 25 40
5 12 80
6 8 125
8 5 200
10 2 500
12 1 750
15 1 1100

First column, length of fish in centimeters.
Second column, number of that size fish you can have in each 1000 cm2 of
surface area.
Third column, approximate number of square centimeters of surface needed for
each fish of that size.

Marcus

NetMax · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 56

"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message $sh4.1317069@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> %AMa.7084$Ec2.549985@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > Marcus Fox wrote in
> message
> > $sh4.1227080@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> > > $eF3.235787@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Fox wrote
in
> > > message
> > > > $rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Cplus" wrote in message
> > > > >$x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > > > > The two remaining mollies (had another black one die on me
this
> > > morning)
> > > > > > that I had in 20g tank I moved to my daughter's 10 gallon
tank
> > > (because
> > > > > the
> > > > > > 20g is high in nitrites still). I moved them because their
back
> fin
> > > > (not
> > > > > > sure of the specific name) was starting to curl in (they're
> lyretail
> > > > > > mollies).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The 10G tank already houses :
> > > > > > 1 guppy
> > > > > > 2 angels
> > > > > > 5 tetras (2 glow light, 3 pristella)
> > > > > > a pleco
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and now I've added the mollies. Will that be too big of a
load?
> It
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > seem like it when I write it down but it seems busy in the
tank.
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought a good rule of thumb was one inch of fish per square
inch
> of
> > > > > surface. And I thought angelfish ate tetras?
> > > > >
> > > > > Marcus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > One fairly common standard (but not fully accurate) is one inch
of
> fish
> > > per
> > > > gallon of water. That equates to about one inch of fish for
every
> > twenty
> > > > square inches of surface.
> > > > Using a standard 15 gallon tank with a surface of 12" x 24",
that's
> 288
> > > > square inches, or more than twenty feet of fish using your rule.
> > > > Not all angels eat all tetras. A better statement would be
almost all
> > > fish
> > > > will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouth.
> > >
> > > Yes, I was a bit confused when I wrote that. But I find the 1 inch
per
> > > gallon rule innacurate, particularly as a 1 inch fish weighs about
1/8th
> > of
> > > a 2 inch fish of the same shape, so it clearly uses more like 1/8th
of
> the
> > > oxygen and produces a corresponding amount of waste products.
> > >
> > > This table should be a bit more accurate, therefore. (It is not
mine)
> > >
> > > Size No. Per cm2 of surface
> Approx.
> > > cm2 per fish
> > >
> > > 1 400
> > > 2.5
> > > 2 110
> > > 9
> > > 3 50
> > > 20
> > > 4 25
> > > 40
> > > 5 12
> > > 80
> > > 6 8
> > > 125
> > > 8 5
> > > 200
> > > 10 2
> > > 500
> > > 12 1
> > > 750
> > > 15 1
> > > 1100
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Marcus
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You are right in that fish mass has more of an impact than fish
length.
> > Unfortunately, while mass is definitely better but harder to
estimate,
> there
> > are also factors such as activity, age, aquarium parameters, and
types of
> > food.
> > Your chart still needs some work. The first column sets out square
cm's
> of
> > fish but it might be better to set out cubic cm's. The second column
sets
> > out square cm's, and how many one inch fish could be stocked in an
> aquarium
> > with a (roughly converted) one inch square surface.
> > You can try but I don't think anyone will deveope anything better
than a
> > rough guide for 'bread and butter' fish from the LFS. Far better to
learn
> > from the experience of others and add that to one's own observations.
> >
> > Jim
>
> The table wrapped. There was supposed to be three columns. The first
column
> was fish length in cm, and the last column ended up under the first
column.
> Here it is again
>
> Size/cm Fish/1000 cm2 surface cm2 / fish
>
> 1 400 2.5
> 2 110 9
> 3 50 20
> 4 25 40
> 5 12 80
> 6 8 125
> 8 5 200
> 10 2 500
> 12 1 750
> 15 1 1100
>
> First column, length of fish in centimeters.
> Second column, number of that size fish you can have in each 1000 cm2
of
> surface area.
> Third column, approximate number of square centimeters of surface
needed for
> each fish of that size.
>
> Marcus

Where did this chart originate from? IMHO, it has a small bit of merit,
but deriving a relationship between body size and a surface area requires
a known rate of circulation (like zero). As soon as you double your
water flow immediately under the surface, your theoretical bio-load
capacity doubles. Triple the flow and you triple your bio-load capacity.
Surface calculations were more popular in the 60s. As filtration systems
became more reliable, powerful and were left on 24 hours a day, deriving
a relationship to water volume became more practical. The surface
calculation is still useful for calculating the mean time to oxygenation
stress in the event of a power failure. You then just have to use a
fudge factor for species. Otos will expire early, before others are
showing stress, and labyrinth equipped fish, and many catfish will labour
along much longer than the others.

I really think the 1"/gal has nothing to do with oxygenation, (or with
anything else tangible). The closest comparison might be biological
capacity. If you have a 20g rated filter on a 20g tank, than having ten
2" fish probably gives you a comfortable operating margin for safety.
You could double the filtration, but now the tank might get too crowded,
depending on the species (some species would be too crowded with ten 2"
in a 20g). No matter how useless these charts and tables are, we still
need them, (if nothing else, to poke holes in their logic ;~)

NetMax

Marcus Fox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 41

> > Size/cm Fish/1000 cm2 surface cm2 / fish
> >
> > 1 400 2.5
> > 2 110 9
> > 3 50 20
> > 4 25 40
> > 5 12 80
> > 6 8 125
> > 8 5 200
> > 10 2 500
> > 12 1 750
> > 15 1 1100
> >
> > First column, length of fish in centimeters.
> > Second column, number of that size fish you can have in each 1000 cm2
> of
> > surface area.
> > Third column, approximate number of square centimeters of surface
> needed for
> > each fish of that size.
> >
> > Marcus
>
> Where did this chart originate from?

Dr Axelrod's Mini Atlas of freshwater aquarium fishes, page 715, put forward
by one of the authors, Dr. Cliff W. Emmens.

Marcus

Marcus Fox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 41

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message$0$5431$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Can you guys please trim your posts.

I did, lol - but my last post wasn't showing up on my news server, so here
it is again, just in case...

> > Size/cm Fish/1000 cm2 surface cm2 / fish
> >
> > 1 400 2.5
> > 2 110 9
> > 3 50 20
> > 4 25 40
> > 5 12 80
> > 6 8 125
> > 8 5 200
> > 10 2 500
> > 12 1 750
> > 15 1 1100
> >
> > First column, length of fish in centimeters.
> > Second column, number of that size fish you can have in each 1000 cm2
> of
> > surface area.
> > Third column, approximate number of square centimeters of surface
> needed for
> > each fish of that size.
> >
> > Marcus
>
> Where did this chart originate from?

Dr Axelrod's Mini Atlas of freshwater aquarium fishes, page 715, put forward
by one of the authors, Dr. Cliff W. Emmens.

Marcus

Graham Broadbridge · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 23

Can you guys please trim your posts.

"Marcus Fox" wrote in
message $sh4.1317069@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> %AMa.7084$Ec2.549985@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> > Marcus Fox wrote in
> message
> > $sh4.1227080@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> > > $eF3.235787@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Fox wrote in
> > > message
> > > > $rG6.15@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Cplus" wrote in message
> > > > > $x4o.4682@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...