Include plants when cycling tank?

Chuck Gadd · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 37

On 17 Aug 2003 12:11:30 GMT, leighmo@aol.comatose (LeighMo) wrote:

>http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm
>
>If you can't do this, leave the plants out until after the tank has cycled.
>The high ammonia levels you get during a fishless cycle will cause algae
>problems. Put the plants in at the same time as the fish.

Note: if you do the fishless cycle method, try to keep the tank as
dark as possible. Leigh's point is very true. The ammonia will most
definitely feed algae. Keeping the tank dark will hopefully eliminate
most of it.

If you have high light plus available ammonia, you will get lots of
algae.

Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>plants

rapdor · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

When starting up a new tank using the fishless cycle method, should I
include aquatic plants or just the gravel and driftwood?

LeighMo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 85

>When starting up a new tank using the fishless cycle method, should I
>include aquatic plants or just the gravel and driftwood?

If this is going to be a high-light, CO2-injected tank, consider using Chuck's
no-cycle method:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

If you can't do this, leave the plants out until after the tank has cycled.
The high ammonia levels you get during a fishless cycle will cause algae
problems. Put the plants in at the same time as the fish.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

tcbiii · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 49

"rapdor" wrote in message news:...
> When starting up a new tank using the fishless cycle method, should I
> include aquatic plants or just the gravel and driftwood?

Why would you need fishless cycling in the first place?
Plants assimilate NH4. The first product of fish waste. The end
product of the bacterial cycle is NO3, also used by plants. So if you
add plants from the start, there is no "cycle" since you are growing
plants, bacteria on the other hand will simply adjust to whatever is
left over. Your NH4 dosing in th start will produce a large colony,
but this large colony will die back to a nominal level after wards.

As far as adding a good colony on bacteria, what the heck wait 2-3
weeks? This is foolish. Simply vacuum an established tank/(friend's,
one of yours, a LFS's, etc) and add the mulm/dirt/detritus tot he
bottom half of the gravel/a little bit into the filter and there you
are, a fully cycled tank with the bacteria and a little organic
material.

That's all that's missing from an established tank, the bacteria and
organic material. It's plain silly to wait and spend time messing with
this fishless cycling mumbo. It takes less time to do a 50% weekly
water change in th beginning to prevent any build up. A weekly 50%
water change is cheaper and certainly simpler as well.

Why folks get this fishless cycling hair is way beyond me. LFS's and
folks that kept fish long before ggest and we added the fish that day
or the next.

I've never measured any NH4 with a Lamott kit on any plant tank. Also
plant roots are loaded with bacteria and will help cycle a tank
quickly.

If you live far away from a LFS/don't have any established tanks
already/don't have any fish tank friends around etc, then you might
consider this method, but I cannot think of many other situations
where it would be useful for non planted tank. For a planted tank,
there is no use for fishless cycling at all.

Regards,
Tom Barr

rapdor · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

OK, will follow you advice--I didn't realise about the algae, so that's
saved me some grief. Thanks gents.

~Vicki ~ · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 172

I have to agree with Tom here. In the 20+ years I have kept fish I have
never done a fishless cycle. It is a waist of time in my opinion.
Start out with one or two fish a week or "seed" your tank from someone
elses' established tank. Add your plants and enjoy your tank. Check
with your LFS and ask for a handful of gravel or used filter media.
They should give it to you for free or next to nothing.

Vicki

rapdor · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

Hmmmm.

Yes, well, waiting several weeks with a brand new $1,000 tank in the lounge
room but no fish doesn't appeal to me either. In fact, I doubt my own
capacity to let it sit there, fishless, totally fishless, for that long.

I haven't kept fish for over 30 years, so thought I'd better catch up on the
latest ideas. And fishless cycling seems to be very prominent among those
new ideas. However my concern with the replies from yourself and Tom is
that you are both telling me exactly what I want to hear. And I like it.

Anyway, it's food for thought. Thanks for your replies.

LeighMo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 85

>I have to agree with Tom here. In the 20+ years I have kept fish I have
>never done a fishless cycle. It is a waist of time in my opinion.
>Start out with one or two fish a week or "seed" your tank from someone
>elses' established tank. Add your plants and enjoy your tank. Check
>with your LFS and ask for a handful of gravel or used filter media.
>They should give it to you for free or next to nothing.

I've done it both ways, and I think both methods have their place.

There are good reasons why you might want to put in all the fish at once. If
you're keeping aggressive Africans, for example, an instant crowd reduces
bloodshed. Or if you're ordering your fish online, and there's a flat delivery
charge, regardless of how many fish you order.

And if you don't have a quarantine tank, putting all the fish in at once is
probably better than treating the tank with a prophylactic ich medication for
weeks and weeks as you gradually add new fish -- especially if you're setting
up a very large tank.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Jim Seidman · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 11

leighmo@aol.comatose (LeighMo) wrote in message news:...
> I've done it both ways, and I think both methods have their place.
>
> There are good reasons why you might want to put in all the fish at once. If
> you're keeping aggressive Africans, for example, an instant crowd reduces
> bloodshed. Or if you're ordering your fish online, and there's a flat delivery
> charge, regardless of how many fish you order.

Even adding several fish at once, you can avoid cycling. I recently
tore down my 125-gallon community tank to replace the substrate,
temporarily putting about 20 fish in a plastic tub.

Two days later, the tank was back together. I didn't "seed" the tank
with mulm. It's running filterless, so I didn't save filter bacteria.
I didn't do much of anything except add a lot of plants before putting
the fish back.

I must admit that I was a little nervous about this, so I diligently
monitored NH3 and NO2 levels. Nothing. Neither ever reached a
detectable level. And I'm not even using CO2 injection, and only 120W
of light!

I am now convinced that it's a lot easier to take care of the ammonia
than people normally believe. I'll certainly never cycle a community
tank again.

- Jim

tcbiii · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 49

Jim et al have never found any NH4 or NO2 when starting and new tank
with plants if set up properly or the method I suggested,
I'm not just tooting here, I have Lamott test kits and have used
them...........

Many many folks have found the same thing, blah blah blah on the
fishless cycling, get it out of here.
If I can do this with Discus and not have issues(no NH4/NO2 measured),
I think I can say pretty confidently it does not have a place in a
planted aquaria.

I mean don't folks do water changes frequently in the beginning also?

I'm lucky to get any nitrogen for that matter.........I'm adding it
for pete sake.

Regards,
Tom Barr

js4@seidman.net (Jim Seidman) wrote in message news:...
> leighmo@aol.comatose (LeighMo) wrote in message news:...
> > I've done it both ways, and I think both methods have their place.
> >
> > There are good reasons why you might want to put in all the fish at once. If
> > you're keeping aggressive Africans, for example, an instant crowd reduces
> > bloodshed. Or if you're ordering your fish online, and there's a flat delivery
> > charge, regardless of how many fish you order.
>
> Even adding several fish at once, you can avoid cycling. I recently
> tore down my 125-gallon community tank to replace the substrate,
> temporarily putting about 20 fish in a plastic tub.
>
> Two days later, the tank was back together. I didn't "seed" the tank
> with mulm. It's running filterless, so I didn't save filter bacteria.
> I didn't do much of anything except add a lot of plants before putting
> the fish back.
>
> I must admit that I was a little nervous about this, so I diligently
> monitored NH3 and NO2 levels. Nothing. Neither ever reached a
> detectable level. And I'm not even using CO2 injection, and only 120W
> of light!
>
> I am now convinced that it's a lot easier to take care of the ammonia
> than people normally believe. I'll certainly never cycle a community
> tank again.
>
> - Jim

Josh · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

just make it easy on yourseld and go buy the new Bio-Spira from
Marineland... lol sorry just had to bring that into play also! lol _ But
seriously if you want to cycle a tank fast with no problems that stuff is
amazing and it definatly works. I was workin at an LFS when it came out and
a Marineland rep came and talked to us about it, Marineland really has put
ALOT of research into this product (I think it was something like 20+ years)
and from the dozen or so people that i personally know that have tried it
said it worked perfectly and definatly could of stocked their tank to 75%
within the next few days, of course none of them did except the 29gallon
guy, and he has no problems at all. Now I prolly wouldnt use this stuff if
you are doing a serious planted aquarium and just go with that article from
Chuck, if you read it it really does make sense and I have decided a while
ago to go with that method and see how it goes. Ill let ya all kno how it
works - Josh (sorry vout the long post)
"LeighMo" wrote in message@mb-m23.aol.com...
> >Jim et al have never found any NH4 or NO2 when starting and new tank
> >with plants if set up properly or the method I suggested,
> >I'm not just tooting here, I have Lamott test kits and have used
> >them...........
>
> How about for unplanted tanks? Does cycling have a place in those?
>
> A lot of people who post here asking questions about plants don't really
have
> planted tanks. They have standard fishtanks that they plan to put a few
live
> plants in. (Often choosing plants completely unsuited for their light
levels,
> if not for aquariums in general.) I suspect the original poster might
have
> been one of those, since his main concern was not wanting to have the tank
> sitting there empty for weeks and weeks. A true planted tank isn't empty,
even
> if there's no fish in it. Smile

>
>
>
> Leigh
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

tcbiii · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 49

> How about for unplanted tanks? Does cycling have a place in those?

No.
If you are one of those folks that overstocks and over feeds and does
not do water changes, well, no method/advice is going to save those
fish. But if you follow general good healthy tank guidelines, the
fishless cycling is of no use unless you hav no friends with fish
anywhere close by, no LFS's close by, no other tanks around, no plants
etc.
Heck, you are pretty damn isolated if this is the case. There are a
few folks in this boat, but 99% are not.

Mulm adds precisely what you need, the bacteria.
This method works for SW, Brackish, FW, planted AF etc.
LFS's have been doing this for well over 50 years. I've never had an
issue yet. So unless you are really and truly isolated, there is no
need to wait, nor add NH4.

Planted or not.
Salt or Fresh.

Does Fishless cycling hurt if no plants/light is added? No, but it's
not needed. I see no need to use NH4 to cycle a tank.

No one has provided _any_ good argument to counter my opinion except
the total isolation viewpoint which is very rare.

Regards,
Tom Barr

> A lot of people who post here asking questions about plants don't really have
> planted tanks. They have standard fishtanks that they plan to put a few live
> plants in. (Often choosing plants completely unsuited for their light levels,
> if not for aquariums in general.) I suspect the original poster might have
> been one of those, since his main concern was not wanting to have the tank
> sitting there empty for weeks and weeks. A true planted tank isn't empty, even
> if there's no fish in it. Smile

>
>
>
> Leigh
>
> http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

LeighMo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 85

>Even adding several fish at once, you can avoid cycling. I recently
>tore down my 125-gallon community tank to replace the substrate,
>temporarily putting about 20 fish in a plastic tub.
>
>Two days later, the tank was back together. I didn't "seed" the tank
>with mulm. It's running filterless, so I didn't save filter bacteria.
>I didn't do much of anything except add a lot of plants before putting
>the fish back.
>
>I must admit that I was a little nervous about this, so I diligently
>monitored NH3 and NO2 levels. Nothing. Neither ever reached a
>detectable level. And I'm not even using CO2 injection, and only 120W
>of light!
>
>I am now convinced that it's a lot easier to take care of the ammonia
>than people normally believe. I'll certainly never cycle a community
>tank again.

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I really can't recommend that everyone try
this method. I've read far too many frantic posts from newbies in a panic
because their fish are dying due to ammonia. Heck, I can still remember when I
*was* that frantic newbie.

I don't know how big your 20 fish were, but since you're running filterless, it
sounds like you don't have much bioload in your very large tank. That can be a
wonderful, low-maintenance way to keep a tank, but most of us, and especially
newbies, tend to overstock. We need our filters, and stocking such a tank
fully overnight is likely to cause nightmarish cycling problems.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

LeighMo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 85

>Jim et al have never found any NH4 or NO2 when starting and new tank
>with plants if set up properly or the method I suggested,
>I'm not just tooting here, I have Lamott test kits and have used
>them...........

How about for unplanted tanks? Does cycling have a place in those?

A lot of people who post here asking questions about plants don't really have
planted tanks. They have standard fishtanks that they plan to put a few live
plants in. (Often choosing plants completely unsuited for their light levels,
if not for aquariums in general.) I suspect the original poster might have
been one of those, since his main concern was not wanting to have the tank
sitting there empty for weeks and weeks. A true planted tank isn't empty, even
if there's no fish in it. Smile

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

LeighMo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 85

>No.
>If you are one of those folks that overstocks and over feeds and does
>not do water changes, well, no method/advice is going to save those
>fish. But if you follow general good healthy tank guidelines, the
>fishless cycling is of no use unless you hav no friends with fish
>anywhere close by, no LFS's close by, no other tanks around, no plants
>etc.

This hasn't been my experience, I'm afraid. Mulm speeds cycling, for sure, and
I use it, but it doesn't eliminate ammonia and nitrite spikes if you're
stocking the tank fully all at once. And as I said, there are instances where
stocking, even overstocking, all at once is necessary. African tanks are often
overstocked, all at once, to minimize aggression and to keep any one fish from
getting a "home tank advantage."

In my newbie days, I had a couple of terrible experiences with cycling -- in
established tanks, not new ones. Once when I changed the gravel in a tank, and
once when I just vacuumed the substrate in a tank with a UGF too thoroughly.
The tanks recovered relatively quickly, but I did lose some fish. Both were
unplanted; I didn't have any problems at all when I changed the gravel in my
planted tank.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/