Inbreeding Yellow Labs

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

Personally, I really dislike the idea of hybrids with our fish. If the
father is not the same species (or even location) as the mother, I would
segregate her until the fry are released, then use the fry as feeders or
destroy them in some other humane way.
Even if similar fish are spawning at the same time in the same tank there is
the chance that free sperm will possibly get from one species to the other.
It's something we, as responsible hobbyists, should be aware of and take
steps to minimize the problem.

Jim

BlackFox wrote in message$XG4.25162@rwcrnsc53...
> i found out a few days ago my Juvi Lab was holding....now i just left her
> until i cleaned the tank, i caught he and segragated her from everyone
else,
> and i noticed she had fry in her mouth, no more eggs... should i let the
fry
> live, or should i release them into the tank? i don't like having holding
> mothers that are either crossbred, or what have you, because i find it
puts
> stress on them, which they don't need, i actually just got done stripping
my
> female elongatus of socofoli fry, i saw her spawning tonight....
>
>

Archived from group: rec>aquaria>freshwater>cichlids

BlackFox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

i found out a few days ago my Juvi Lab was holding....now i just left her
until i cleaned the tank, i caught he and segragated her from everyone else,
and i noticed she had fry in her mouth, no more eggs... should i let the fry
live, or should i release them into the tank? i don't like having holding
mothers that are either crossbred, or what have you, because i find it puts
stress on them, which they don't need, i actually just got done stripping my
female elongatus of socofoli fry, i saw her spawning tonight....

BlackFox · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

so i should destroy all of any inbred fish? i have some crosbred fry right
now, and i need to separate them from all my other fry, and use them as
feeders, seems cruel, and everyone else says it is to me....but sometimes
you gotta do it, and i refuse to sell them like that, and i cannot keep them

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

What you do with the inbred fish is ultimately your decision. If you have
problems destroying them, then keep them for your own satisfaction.
A very real problem is that if you pass any on to other hobbyists or LFS's,
the fact that they are hybrids can be missed somewhere, and relatively pure
strains in other places will be ruined.
You seem to have made an informed decision in that you refuse to sell them,
(Bravo!!), but you can't keep them. Always a tough decision with a living
creature.

Jim

BlackFox wrote in message$R73.6608@sccrnsc04...
>
> so i should destroy all of any inbred fish? i have some crosbred fry right
> now, and i need to separate them from all my other fry, and use them as
> feeders, seems cruel, and everyone else says it is to me....but sometimes
> you gotta do it, and i refuse to sell them like that, and i cannot keep
them
>
>

Jim Brown · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 177

Mort wrote in message$BM.2780614@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Jim Brown" wrote in message
> $OE2.1004029@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > What you do with the inbred fish is ultimately your decision. If you
have
> > problems destroying them, then keep them for your own satisfaction.
> > A very real problem is that if you pass any on to other hobbyists or
> LFS's,
> > the fact that they are hybrids can be missed somewhere, and relatively
> pure
> > strains in other places will be ruined.
> > You seem to have made an informed decision in that you refuse to sell
> them,
> > (Bravo!!), but you can't keep them. Always a tough decision with a
living
> > creature.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > BlackFox wrote in message
> > $R73.6608@sccrnsc04...
> > >
> > > so i should destroy all of any inbred fish? i have some crosbred fry
> right
> > > now, and i need to separate them from all my other fry, and use them
as
> > > feeders, seems cruel, and everyone else says it is to me....but
> sometimes
> > > you gotta do it, and i refuse to sell them like that, and i cannot
keep
> > them
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> I'm a little confused....
>
> There is a difference between inbreeds and hybrids,
>
> Hybrids = a mix of two different species. VERY BAD
>
> Inbreds = babies from two fish that are from the same parents (read,
brother
> and sister) While not the most desireable method of breeding, You wont
see
> any apparent consequences until several generations later. I think it
> happens far more often that we realise. I don't have the exact number
handy
> but if I remember correctly, it was common practice for *some* people to
> inbreed up to 3 or 4 generations I do NOT condone these practices,
however,
> I dont think it is necessary to destroy the fry...
>
> You are definately on the right track by getting rid of the hybrids
though,
> I think feeding them to grown fish is a natural and beneficial way to
> dispose of them.
>
> HTH
>
> ~Mort
>

Yes, inbreeding and hybridization are two very different things.
Hybrids are the result of crossing two different species. They obviously
ruin the purity of a species and, if left unchecked, could potentially end
up with the eradication of the pure species. Hybridize if you want but you
must assume full responsibility to ensure they are not passed on to others.
Inbreeding or linebreeding is matings of related or very similar members of
the same species. Yes, this will end up accentuating any 'bad' or unwanted
genes, but it can also intensify or 'fix' desirable characteristics.
Crossing of same species but different colour patterns can give rise to the
erroneously called 'hybrid vigour'. I see this when I cross half black
pastel guppies to snakeskin guppies. The resulting fish are half black with
the caudal and dorsal a light blue or yellow with large black spots or
streaks. The so called half black AOC (any other colour). They are bigger
and flashier than either parent line.

Jim

Mort · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

"Jim Brown" wrote in message$OE2.1004029@news20.bellglobal.com...
> What you do with the inbred fish is ultimately your decision. If you have
> problems destroying them, then keep them for your own satisfaction.
> A very real problem is that if you pass any on to other hobbyists or
LFS's,
> the fact that they are hybrids can be missed somewhere, and relatively
pure
> strains in other places will be ruined.
> You seem to have made an informed decision in that you refuse to sell
them,
> (Bravo!!), but you can't keep them. Always a tough decision with a living
> creature.
>
> Jim
>
> BlackFox wrote in message
> $R73.6608@sccrnsc04...
> >
> > so i should destroy all of any inbred fish? i have some crosbred fry
right
> > now, and i need to separate them from all my other fry, and use them as
> > feeders, seems cruel, and everyone else says it is to me....but
sometimes
> > you gotta do it, and i refuse to sell them like that, and i cannot keep
> them
> >
> >
>
>

I'm a little confused....

There is a difference between inbreeds and hybrids,

Hybrids = a mix of two different species. VERY BAD

Inbreds = babies from two fish that are from the same parents (read, brother
and sister) While not the most desireable method of breeding, You wont see
any apparent consequences until several generations later. I think it
happens far more often that we realise. I don't have the exact number handy
but if I remember correctly, it was common practice for *some* people to
inbreed up to 3 or 4 generations I do NOT condone these practices, however,
I dont think it is necessary to destroy the fry...

You are definately on the right track by getting rid of the hybrids though,
I think feeding them to grown fish is a natural and beneficial way to
dispose of them.

HTH

~Mort

rmc · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 42

"Jaroslav Vopalensky" wrote in
message $1edm$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz...

> I've read (article by Ad Konings on cichlidae.com) that most if not
all
> yellow labs in the hobby are probably descendants of ONE pair Smile

--
That is not exactly true unless you're going by the "Adam & Eve"
theory. The Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab) tends to inhabit
deeper water and the location where these fish come from make them a
little tougher to collect but they still get imported now and then.
Wild-caught specimens are expensive and since Wal-Mart is selling
small tank-raised juveniles for $4-$5, importing these fish is far
less desirable. Some wild-caught Labs were just recently imported a
few weeks ago but the price was scary. I was told $100-$200 per pair
and the reason for the high price was the collector really did not
want to go through the trouble to collect them. I guess it makes
sense but WOW! That's a lot of $$$ for a Yellow Lab.

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

Jaroslav Vopalensky · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

> I'm a little confused....
>
> There is a difference between inbreeds and hybrids,
>
> Hybrids = a mix of two different species. VERY BAD
>
> Inbreds = babies from two fish that are from the same parents (read,
brother
> and sister) While not the most desireable method of breeding, You wont
see
> any apparent consequences until several generations later. I think it
> happens far more often that we realise. I don't have the exact number
handy
> but if I remember correctly, it was common practice for *some* people to
> inbreed up to 3 or 4 generations I do NOT condone these practices,
however,
> I dont think it is necessary to destroy the fry...

I've read (article by Ad Konings on cichlidae.com) that most if not all
yellow labs in the hobby are probably descendants of ONE pair Smile

Jaroslav Vopalensky · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

> That is not exactly true unless you're going by the "Adam & Eve"
> theory. The Labidochromis Caeruleus (Yellow Lab) tends to inhabit
> deeper water and the location where these fish come from make them a
> little tougher to collect but they still get imported now and then.
> Wild-caught specimens are expensive and since Wal-Mart is selling
> small tank-raised juveniles for $4-$5, importing these fish is far
> less desirable. Some wild-caught Labs were just recently imported a
> few weeks ago but the price was scary. I was told $100-$200 per pair
> and the reason for the high price was the collector really did not
> want to go through the trouble to collect them. I guess it makes
> sense but WOW! That's a lot of $$$ for a Yellow Lab.
>
>
> Mark
> http://www.cichliddomain.com
>

Did you read that article? The idea is that most exported Labs were pond
raised in Burundi by Pierre Brichard from one pair (which was previously
exported to Sweden and then re-exported back to africa by Brichard...).
Stuart Grant decided to breed them, but it took them several months to catch
22 specimens(!!), but then earthquake ruined his plans... Maybe I should
have used phrase "vast majority" instead of "most if not all", but even
then, I think its quite interesting! And its also interesting to know that
one of the most common rift-lake cichlid in the hobby is quite rare in the
wild...

--
J.

rmc · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 42

> Did you read that article? The idea is that most exported Labs were
pond
> raised in Burundi by Pierre Brichard from one pair (which was
previously
> exported to Sweden and then re-exported back to africa by
Brichard...).
> Stuart Grant decided to breed them, but it took them several months
to catch
> 22 specimens(!!), but then earthquake ruined his plans... Maybe I
should
> have used phrase "vast majority" instead of "most if not all", but
even
> then, I think its quite interesting! And its also interesting to
know that
> one of the most common rift-lake cichlid in the hobby is quite rare
in the
> wild...
>
> --
> J.
>
>
>

--

I have read numerous articles that support what you are saying and I
tend to agree. I probably should have said - not entirely true
"anymore". A few years back it was hard to find a Yel. Lab. with good
coloration which many believed was caused by the inbreeding. For a
very long time, Brichard and Grant were about the only ones collecting
on Lake Malawi but now there are many more collectors. I heard a
rumor at the ACA last year that so many of the Yel. Labs had been
collected over the last 5 years that there was some thought of making
future collecting illegal. I also agree and find it interesting that
this very common fish is one of the most rare to obtain from the wild.

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com