A few aqua newby questions if someone has time....

Mike Blanton · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

1.) Should you vacuum the gravel before your tank begins to cycle?
Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle?
2.) Besides water testing, is there a way to tell if your tank is
cycling?
3.) How much air should one have going into their tank, and how do you
tell. I don't see a cfm or flow rate on the pump boxes.
4.) If I am using an external filter, do I need to add air or does is
put in enough, or even any at all?

5.) How often should I change the filter on my external filter? The
box says "...reduced water flow" but when do most people change the
filter? Also, is it a bad idea to clean and reuse the filter and
replace the activated charcoal?

6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering
& pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if
it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather
then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would
offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not?
(When I say familiar I mean at one time I knew more about pH, pOH,
buffering equations, acids & bases then I ever wanted to know but God
was great in granting me the ability to forget traumatic periods in
our life. And, thankfully, only a few bits of knowledge remain)

Thanks for most responses.
I have and will continue to read the FAQs on different webs sites.

Blanton

Archived from group: alt>aquaria>tropical>fish>hobbist

Koi-Lo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 199

"Mike Blanton" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> 1.) Should you vacuum the gravel before your tank begins to cycle?

I don't.

> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle?

What do you mean BEFORE it begins to cycle? The cycle starts when you add
the first fish. Start partial changes as soon as you see ammonia. Don't
let it reach deadly levels. You can also try BioSpira.

> 2.) Besides water testing, is there a way to tell if your tank is
> cycling?

No.

> 3.) How much air should one have going into their tank, and how do you
> tell. I don't see a cfm or flow rate on the pump boxes.

That depends on the filter and fish load. Please Google Aquarium+Beginner.
You can read for days.... Smile

> 4.) If I am using an external filter, do I need to add air or does is
> put in enough, or even any at all?

That depends on the filter and fish load.

> 5.) How often should I change the filter on my external filter? The
> box says "...reduced water flow" but when do most people change the
> filter? Also, is it a bad idea to clean and reuse the filter and
> replace the activated charcoal?

Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when
the tank FINISHES cycling.

> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering
> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if
> it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather
> then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would
> offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you have fish that need hard
alkaline water?

> (When I say familiar I mean at one time I knew more about pH, pOH,
> buffering equations, acids & bases then I ever wanted to know but God
> was great in granting me the ability to forget traumatic periods in
> our life. And, thankfully, only a few bits of knowledge remain)
>
> Thanks for most responses.
> I have and will continue to read the FAQs on different webs sites.
>
> Blanton
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }

Mike Blanton · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 1

>
>> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle?
>
>What do you mean BEFORE it begins to cycle? The cycle starts when you add
>the first fish. Start partial changes as soon as you see ammonia. Don't
>let it reach deadly levels. You can also try BioSpira.

Pardon. I should have written should I do a partial water change
BEFORE the tank reaches equilibrium?

>Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when
>the tank FINISHES cycling.

My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question
and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue
but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that
the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state?
So much to know but I'm trying.

>> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering
>> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if
>> it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather
>> then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would
>> offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not?
>
>I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you have fish that need hard
>alkaline water?

I'm using starter fish. Will I need to buy fish tolerant of alkaline
water?
Is that the main reason to buy the crushed coral? I just wanted
something besides the merrily colored stones that most places sell.
Something natural looking.

Thanks

NetMax · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 614

"Mike Blanton" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> 1.) Should you vacuum the gravel before your tank begins to cycle?
> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle?

'Cycling' typically refers to the establishment of the aerobic nitrifying
bacteria which coat the filter media. This takes about 4 to 6 weeks without
bacterial seeding (aged media, or Biospira will accelerate the process).
However there are many other bacteria which move into their niches
throughout the aquarium. I would not do any filter or gravel cleaning until
the main nitrification cycle was complete, but I would feed sparingly and be
careful to not allow any excess food to accumulate. You can safely remove
axcess food by lightly gravel vaccuming (and you should) as this adds to
your bioload, making your ammonia & nitrite spikes higher than they should
be (decaying organic matter and fish waste and respiration are all sources
of ammonia).

> 2.) Besides water testing, is there a way to tell if your tank is
> cycling?

Yes, some fish will show some symptoms, others will simply die. Generally
smaller fish can die so quickly that they don't have much opportunity to
show symptoms. Ammonia burn will cause their gills to go bright red. This
is generally considered permanent (irreversible) damage. Nitrites can cause
flashing (fish scratching themselves against objects). Other stress
symptoms are rapid respiration (gilling), loss of color, loss of appetite,
nontypical swimming behavior (sitting at the bottom, floating near the
surface, wobbling etc). In all cases, it's impossible to correlate
toxicity levels from behavior. The behavior is only suitable as a trigger
to take action. Many of these symptoms will result in severely weakened
fish which are then prone to disease and shorter life expectancies, so their
exposure to stress conditions should be minimized. During cycling, you
don't need to watch for behavior as you already know there is an issue to be
monitored, so water tests are the only reliable method.

> 3.) How much air should one have going into their tank, and how do you
> tell. I don't see a cfm or flow rate on the pump boxes.

None. Aeration increases the O2 level slightly (mostly to the benefit of
the fish under high fishload conditions), and breaks up the protein skim at
the surface, but it's otherwise a cosmetic addition for us.

Airpumps are not rated, as their performance is variable to the depth the
air exits, and they degrade with time. It's a very imperfect science.

> 4.) If I am using an external filter, do I need to add air or does is
> put in enough, or even any at all?

Answered above. No air is normally needed.

> 5.) How often should I change the filter on my external filter? The
> box says "...reduced water flow" but when do most people change the
> filter? Also, is it a bad idea to clean and reuse the filter and
> replace the activated charcoal?

Reduced water flow is a valid indicator. If the flow drops too much the
aerobic bacteria die off (water is their oxygen, literally). You don't want
to much decaying organic matter trapped in the filter either. If the design
allows, it's better to wash the filter media in unchlorinated water, and
return it to operation (all the nitrifying bacteria on the filter is
preserved). If you need to replace the media, to avoid a mini-cycle, rinse,
crush and place the old media with the new media for 3 weeks.

> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering
> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if
> it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather
> then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would
> offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not?
> (When I say familiar I mean at one time I knew more about pH, pOH,
> buffering equations, acids & bases then I ever wanted to know but God
> was great in granting me the ability to forget traumatic periods in
> our life. And, thankfully, only a few bits of knowledge remain)

LOL. Without knowing what fish you want and your exact gH, kH and pH
levels, it's not possible to comment intelligently. Bad pH for one
application is good pH for another. Generally, you should match your fish
to your natural source water conditions as measured after airing for 24
hours. Acclimation should be done with an understanding of the source water
they are coming from (LFS) ....and, it's very unusual and imprudent to
chemically mess with your water parameters unless absolutely neccesary.
Fish are quite adaptable to clean water, so regular water changes and proper
maintenance will do more for you than any chemicals on the market (and I'm
speaking with some experience on this point, from residential fish husbandry
of over 30 years, and from working in the trade, but as always, jmo ;~).

ps: you'll find rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc better travelled that this
newsgroup, for a greater diversity of answers, and better response time.
cheers
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks for most responses.
> I have and will continue to read the FAQs on different webs sites.
>
> Blanton

Michelle · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 18

>Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species that need
>the high pH, for example some of the African cichlids. Otherwise, don't
>worry about it. Most freshwater fish will adjust to whatever your local pH
>is, just be sure to drip them when introducing them to a new tank. For the
>most part crushed coral is not used with freswater.
>
>Gloria
>

Hi, what do you mean by "drip them"?

Thanks

"Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit.
We become just by doing just acts,
temperate by doing temperate acts,
brave by doing brave acts."
~ Aristotle

Koi-Lo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 199

"Mike Blanton" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> >
>>> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle?
>>
>>What do you mean BEFORE it begins to cycle? The cycle starts when you add
>>the first fish. Start partial changes as soon as you see ammonia. Don't
>>let it reach deadly levels. You can also try BioSpira.
>
> Pardon. I should have written should I do a partial water change
> BEFORE the tank reaches equilibrium?

If you're doing fishless cycling - no. If you have fish in your tank than
do enough water changes to keep the ammonia below critical levels. Then
watch for nitrites.

>>Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when
>>the tank FINISHES cycling.

> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question
> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue
> but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that
> the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state?
> So much to know but I'm trying.

Yes, in time the cycle will finish with or without fish (some people use
pure commercial ammonia for fishless cycling). How long that takes can't be
foreseen. It depends on too many things, too many variables. Just do
enough water changes to keep the levels above what will kill your fish.

>>> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering
>>> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if
>>> it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather
>>> then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would
>>> offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not?
>>
>>I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you have fish that need hard
>>alkaline water?
>
> I'm using starter fish. Will I need to buy fish tolerant of alkaline
> water?

If you plan to have a tank with alkaline water, then it's better to purchase
fish that do well in such water.

> Is that the main reason to buy the crushed coral?

Well you wouldn't want coral in a tank for soft acid water fish.

I just wanted
> something besides the merrily colored stones that most places sell.
> Something natural looking.

Home Depot and Lowe's both sell a small brown gravel for something like $3 o
$4 per 50 lb bag. It's as small as what you get in the pet shops. It's all
natural and very attractive in tanks. Add some river rock for variety in
the tank (also sold there). Neither of these effect the PH of the water
like coral does. Coral will tend to keep your water alkaline.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }

Koi-Lo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 199

"Gloria Carr" wrote in message $HW2.3490@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Mike Blanton" wrote in message
> @4ax.com...
>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question
>> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue
>> but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that
>> the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state?
>> So much to know but I'm trying.
>
> It'll slow down the cycle, or even restart it.
======================
But if the ammonia reaches high enough levels his fish will die. I do
enough water changes in a case like this to keep the ammonia below deadly
levels and don't lose any fish - the cycle still completes in due time. I
feed fish very lightly during cycling. Little food and feces would be
dropping into/on the gravel. I leave the filter untouched. Nowadays I just
move a seeded filter to new tanks. At least 99% of the time that prevents
cycling.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }

Gloria Carr · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Mike Blanton" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> >
>>> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle?
>>
>>What do you mean BEFORE it begins to cycle? The cycle starts when you add
>>the first fish. Start partial changes as soon as you see ammonia. Don't
>>let it reach deadly levels. You can also try BioSpira.
>
> Pardon. I should have written should I do a partial water change
> BEFORE the tank reaches equilibrium?
>
>>Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when
>>the tank FINISHES cycling.
>
> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question
> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue
> but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that
> the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state?
> So much to know but I'm trying.

It'll slow down the cycle, or even restart it.

>>> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering
>>> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if
>>> it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather
>>> then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would
>>> offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not?
>>
>>I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you have fish that need hard
>>alkaline water?
>
> I'm using starter fish. Will I need to buy fish tolerant of alkaline
> water?
> Is that the main reason to buy the crushed coral? I just wanted
> something besides the merrily colored stones that most places sell.
> Something natural looking.

Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species that need
the high pH, for example some of the African cichlids. Otherwise, don't
worry about it. Most freshwater fish will adjust to whatever your local pH
is, just be sure to drip them when introducing them to a new tank. For the
most part crushed coral is not used with freswater.

Gloria

NetMax · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 614

"swarvegorilla" wrote in message $0$7605$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "NetMax"
> You put a lot back into the hobby mate!!
> Try ta follow your lead hey but max respec' to ya anyway.
> Prob saving more aquarium fish from death than..... well I can't
> think of anyone else.
> good work dude!

Thanks, nothing wrong with your answers either!
--
www.NetMax.tk

swarvegorilla · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 235

"NetMax"
You put a lot back into the hobby mate!!
Try ta follow your lead hey but max respec' to ya anyway.
Prob saving more aquarium fish from death than..... well I can't think of
anyone else.
good work dude!

Koi-Lo · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 199

"Gloria Carr" wrote in message $HW2.3318@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Koi-Lo" wrote in message
>> But if the ammonia reaches high enough levels his fish will die. I do
>> enough water changes in a case like this to keep the ammonia below deadly
>> levels and don't lose any fish - the cycle still completes in due time.
>> I feed fish very lightly during cycling. Little food and feces would be
>> dropping into/on the gravel. I leave the filter untouched. Nowadays I
>> just move a seeded filter to new tanks. At least 99% of the time that
>> prevents cycling.
======================
> But some ammonia is necessary for cycling, if there isn't any in the tank
> the nitrifying bacteria won't grow and he will have a real problem if he
> adds more fish.

Please read my post again. I didn't say REMOVE all the ammonia - just keep
it down to level that doesn't kill the fish.

Partial water changes aren't bad if the ammonia gets into
> the danger range, but it will slow down the time it takes to cycle.

Probably - but don't you value your fish? If you're doing fishless cycling
then it doesn't matter.

As long
> as the amount of ammonia is within the safe range (.25ppm or less) then a
> water change shouldn't be necessary.

I didn't say it would be.

Large water changes when the ammonia
> level is relatively small might even cause the cycle to restart.

Who mentioned large water changes???

> Seeding a tank shortens the cycle a great deal, but there still is a small
> cycle.

So small when done *correctly* it hardly matters.

Whenever I've seeded a tank by using old filter material it's taken
> about a week or two for everything to fully stabilize. The tank should
> only be half-stocked during that time IMO.

Less than that for the 1st week or two.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ } ~~~ } ~~~ }

Nikki · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 62

"NetMax" wrote in message $m35.19644@news20.bellglobal.com...
> "Michelle" wrote in message
> @4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 17:57:25 GMT, "Gloria Carr"
>> wrote:
>>
> The problem starts (and is a concern with the drip method mentioned) when
> the bag is opened. O2 rushes in, CO2 rushes out, pH rises, ammonium turns
> into toxic ammonia and the fish suffers from pH shock and ammonia burn,
> while you slowly drip acclimate them (which is primarily to equalize
> differences in osmotic pressure from DOCs, TDS, and gH).
>

Wow i bet that is what i did last night with the female betta's, i did not
realise that.
The bag of water they were in was cold from coming home, i was slowly adding
tank water to get them used to it and also as not to take them from cold to
warm tank temp water, i had a problem with a couple of them. The black
moor..... i had his bag floating in the tank adding water from my tank but
not as long because you had posted not to, and i did not have any problems
with him, that makes sence, i wish i would have realised that sooner.
Nik
sorry for cutting in...just realised what happend.

> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

Gloria Carr · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message $0$13210$8f2e0ebb@news.shared-secrets.com...
>
> "Gloria Carr" wrote in message
> $HW2.3490@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Mike Blanton" wrote in message
>> @4ax.com...
>>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question
>>> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue
>>> but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that
>>> the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state?
>>> So much to know but I'm trying.
>>
>> It'll slow down the cycle, or even restart it.
> ======================
> But if the ammonia reaches high enough levels his fish will die. I do
> enough water changes in a case like this to keep the ammonia below deadly
> levels and don't lose any fish - the cycle still completes in due time. I
> feed fish very lightly during cycling. Little food and feces would be
> dropping into/on the gravel. I leave the filter untouched. Nowadays I
> just move a seeded filter to new tanks. At least 99% of the time that
> prevents cycling.

But some ammonia is necessary for cycling, if there isn't any in the tank
the nitrifying bacteria won't grow and he will have a real problem if he
adds more fish. Partial water changes aren't bad if the ammonia gets into
the danger range, but it will slow down the time it takes to cycle. As long
as the amount of ammonia is within the safe range (.25ppm or less) then a
water change shouldn't be necessary. Large water changes when the ammonia
level is relatively small might even cause the cycle to restart.

Seeding a tank shortens the cycle a great deal, but there still is a small
cycle. Whenever I've seeded a tank by using old filter material it's taken
about a week or two for everything to fully stabilize. The tank should only
be half-stocked during that time IMO.

Gloria

NetMax · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 614

"Gloria Carr" wrote in message $HW2.3318@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Koi-Lo" wrote in message
> $0$13210$8f2e0ebb@news.shared-secrets.com...
>>
>> "Gloria Carr" wrote in message
>> $HW2.3490@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> "Mike Blanton" wrote in message
>>> @4ax.com...
>>>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a
>>>> question
>>>> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to
>>>> argue
>>>> but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that
>>>> the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state?
>>>> So much to know but I'm trying.
>>>
>>> It'll slow down the cycle, or even restart it.
>> ======================
>> But if the ammonia reaches high enough levels his fish will die. I do
>> enough water changes in a case like this to keep the ammonia below
>> deadly levels and don't lose any fish - the cycle still completes in
>> due time. I feed fish very lightly during cycling. Little food and
>> feces would be dropping into/on the gravel. I leave the filter
>> untouched. Nowadays I just move a seeded filter to new tanks. At
>> least 99% of the time that prevents cycling.
>
> But some ammonia is necessary for cycling, if there isn't any in the
> tank the nitrifying bacteria won't grow and he will have a real problem
> if he adds more fish. Partial water changes aren't bad if the ammonia
> gets into the danger range, but it will slow down the time it takes to
> cycle. As long as the amount of ammonia is within the safe range
> (.25ppm or less) then a water change shouldn't be necessary. Large
> water changes when the ammonia level is relatively small might even
> cause the cycle to restart.

I don't think that is how it works. Bacteria multiply on the presence of
ammonia, not the magnitude. I don't think you could do enough water
changes to remove all the presence. In a fishless cycle, if the
magnitude gets too high it even negatively affects the ability of some
bacteria to multiply (though that's just trivia and probably not really
relevant to this topic ;~). If you scale this to nature, it makes more
sense. In nature (with huge water volumes as compared to an aquarium),
it is a tiny amount of ammonia which triggers bacterial growth. Where in
nature would you get such an obscenely huge .25ppm of ammonia?
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Seeding a tank shortens the cycle a great deal, but there still is a
> small cycle. Whenever I've seeded a tank by using old filter material
> it's taken about a week or two for everything to fully stabilize. The
> tank should only be half-stocked during that time IMO.
>
> Gloria
>

Miss Anne Thrope · Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 13

Apparently the gin kicked in during question 6.